On the Tools: What Being a Renewable Heating Engineer Is Really Like Today

In this episode, Nathan speaks with Guild engineers Michael Waring (Bromley Energy) and Liam Knowles (The Heating People) about the daily realities of working on the tools in modern heating engineering. They move past surface-level talk to explore what it actually takes to run and grow a high-standard heating business today. 

Key discussion points include:

• The Recruitment Struggle: Why finding installers with the right work ethic, care, and attitude matters far more than baseline qualifications. 
• Managing the Workload: How elite installers balance surveys, admin, and on-site labor using 30-minute triage calls and AI phone receptionists.
• MCS & Accreditation Realities: Navigating certification schemes, paperwork, and quality management systems as an established installer. 
• Evolving Skills & Tech: Moving from gas boilers to heat pumps and air-to-air systems, tackling product shortages, and managing post-installation handovers. 
• The Future of Training: Rethinking traditional college apprenticeships, on-the-job learning, and where manufacturer support needs to step up. 

An authentic look into the modern heating trade directly from those doing the work every day. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Welcome to another episode of Beta Talk. And today, or tonight, it's it's the evening, I've got a glass of wine. Uh, I'm joined by two of my guild engineers, uh, Michael and Liam. And before we chat to them, I'd like to thank my guild patrons who support this podcast and my newsletter, and that's Payaka, Primary Pro, Woolsey Renewable Centre, UK Radiators, Cast Rads, and Esby Group. So, Liam and Michael, we've got Michael Warren who runs Bromney Energy down south somewhere, and we've got Liam Knowles, who's the heating people, and you're you're Northwest, aren't you, Liam?

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Yeah, yeah, I am. I'm uh I'm in Witness, so right between Liverpool and Manchester.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

And you and you cover quite a large area, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Yeah, um, it wasn't intentional. Um, we when we started working in heat pumps, our very first inquiry, which actually came through someone who was a listener to your podcast just round the corner in Warrington, but then the inquiries spread, so we ended up in Manchester. We end up in North Wales quite a lot now. Uh, but just following demand, really.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Michael, what's your area? So we're based in to the worst Bromley, southeast London, and we cover VR D A S E postcodes predominantly, but we'll go out into the the countryside of M E T N. It's quite a good, it's quite a good location where we are.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

So one of one of the sort of main themes I want this podcast to be about is like what what is it actually like to be a renewables heating engineer in today's sort of climate, today's environment. Obviously, we know we're sort of starting this transition, lots and lots of people talking about the heating sector. Um, we're all on social media, so we see all sorts of people talking about it. So I want to give them a sense and a listener's a sense, yeah, what is it actually like to be an engineer out there in today's environment, and particularly a good engineer, because as we know, I mean that's something we'll probably talk about. You're you're part of my guild, Liam. You're one of the original heat geeks. I think you do some heat geek work, maybe, Michael. Um, you know, what so what is it actually like at the moment being a heat geek? Is it tough, for instance? Is it hard hard work? I mean, Michael, for instance, you've literally just got home and put your kids to bed, haven't you?

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Yeah, so today we're we're um exploring some new things that we're sort of gonna go into in the in the future, but I think is it is it hard? I don't think it's hard, I think it's in demand. I think people find it difficult to find good installers, um and we're and it in turn, us as a business, we find it hard to recruit good installers.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

I I would echo that. Um it's not a hard job to do in the sense that we're not mining for coal and you know we're not trying to uh put rockets into space. It it's hard in the sense that um it's a fairly new concept to homeowners, so it's hard from a point of view that there's often a lot of questions to answer. There's a lot of myths to bust because there's a lot of missing information out there and and still misinformation being put out there. So it's it's very different than um well, from from my background when we were putting gas boilers in, and everyone had essentially grown up with one and knew exactly what they were getting.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

How large are your companies, Michael? Have you got a certain amount of engineers working for you, or is it you as a sole trader?

SPEAKER_00 3:36

Uh so in our business, we've got uh a full-time office staff, we've got um a full-time installer and an apprentice, and then we use subcontractors at the moment for electrical additional for ground works and for additional installations. We're actively looking for a full-time electrician to come on the cards, and and we're always looking for for good installers.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Uh I'm presuming it's easier to find uh an elect full-time electrician than it is to find an engineer that you'd be satisfied with the competency of their work, maybe.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Uh, yeah, similarly, they all want they they've all they've got their own sort of criteria that we're struggling to fill. So with the with the installer side, is we could we could get an installer tomorrow, but to get an installer that's got the right attitude and the right work ethic to want to do things the way we want them done, we it's it's it's almost impossible to find someone like that. So we're I'm I'm open to the ideas to recruit someone from outside the industry. If they've got I can teach someone to to put a pipe on the wall um and do things the way we want it done, but if if they come with that effort with that right attitude to work, I'd rather take them over a level two plumber.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

I mean, it would this have been the same. So let's say when you when you were running gas companies, if you did run them and you wanted to bring on another engineer or a couple of engineers, I'm assuming it would have been a lot easier just to get someone to come and do that particular job.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

I think that I found it a little bit easier. Um, partly because the work's more contained, but when we were doing boilers, it was a lot of boiler replacements and stuff. You can see what they've done, it's all in a small area. Um, and worst case, it takes you a day to put something right. Whereas if you send somebody to go and do something and you know they're cutting notches out of floors and they're too big, it's a massive headache, or issues on in cylinder cupboards can take you ages to put things right. I think I think you as well as needing a higher level of competency, you also need a higher level of trust in the person.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

So this is a big problem, and obviously, we're all in our our sort of guild WhatsApp groups, and you know, most of you are kind of looking to scale a little bit, and obviously then want to take on someone, but you're all finding that quite hard to find someone that you can kind of trust that's gonna sort of do the work to your standards you you require. Yeah, that's hard to solve, I suppose, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 6:13

I it's a common theme across every uh group of engineers that I engage with, really. But I think part of it is that although all of us are running businesses, we're all technicians in what we do, and you know, we all pride ourselves on it being good. So you've got that extra, extra layer of concern that if you were just running it as a business and you'd never been involved on on the tools side, you probably wouldn't be as concerned about good enough would be good enough. You see what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 6:45

I mean, it I I asked you, you know, what's it like to be a a renewable seating engineer? Is it is it hard? What about the day-to-day kind of things you have to do? I mean, I I know for a fact you both work hard, you all work hard in the in the group. I mean, you obviously you're doing things like you're going out to jobs, you're surveying them, you're going to services, breakdowns, installs, but you've got things like um, you know, all the admin and operation stuff and all the marketing you all have to do as well. I mean, did you have to do that when you were just gas boilers? I mean, is it is there a lot more of a workload now? And things like the training.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

It's it's next level now, the administration side of it. And we've we're in the process now of obtaining our own MCS, but even even without that, the admin side of it is it's next level. The inquiries have gone probably tenfold. With us doing the heat pumps and the air conditioning, it was it was a no-brainer that we had to get someone to come in full-time into the office. And then since then, um I don't know how I didn't get a couple of bad reviews pop up. Just that I could not get back to people quick enough to book in surveys now. This guy we've got in the office, a great guy. He's um I've got survey, I'm booked up and booked up for surveys now. We've even got to stage now we're doing we're doing um 30-minute like triage phone calls to prevent wasted site visits, just to manage the expectations of the of the customer, talking it through, finding out whether we're gonna be a good fit for them before we go out and and charge for a survey. Yeah, heat pump and air conditioning both. So now we charge for a site visit now, we're charging for a survey, but we give them a free 30-minute phone call to ask as many questions and any information they want to find out whether it's gonna be suitable for we're gonna be suitable for them.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

Was it you that used these AI? Have you got some AI thing running, Michael? Oh no, what's that? Remember Steve.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Yes, we've got a we've got a couple of we've got a couple of AIs running. Um so we've got uh one called Agent Dave, which is inside Payaka. Oh yeah. So we we we use that that that's like um so we've got Will is full-time in the office, but having Agent Dave is like having three people in the office compared to one, and then we've got uh an AI receptionist, which is more than like it's not like a chat bot. Some people think it's like a chat bot, but as you're seeing where some of the boys have been trying it out in the in the group, it's it it not that it's not there to fool customers, but a lot of customers assume that it's a real person.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

I I use the same AI receptionist. Um, I've not integrated it anywhere near as deeply, but um the the way that it can pull information when it's being trained, it's brilliant. But I've had people in the conversation with it say, Oh, and if you're AI, you've been brilliant. It's uh it's remarkable.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Yeah, we get that comment often, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

What about so you both I think you're both actually uh about to go for your MCS, aren't you? So so have you found it um what's it been like? Obviously, you you work under umbrella schemes, obviously heat geek type things. Have you found have you found the start? Because you're only going through the start of the MCS application. Uh what's it like? Uh is it is it a bit of a ball ache? What what how are you finding it?

SPEAKER_01 10:18

You're a little bit ahead of me on this, I think, so it's probably that's the new answer.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

So I think so we've gone through it, we've we've applied through NAPIT for um a few technologies, but heat pump being the main one, sort of our core core MCS offering. Um we've applied to them, but it's it's still at the stage. We've got we've we've put stuff in place, we've got our quality management system in place, we've got uh the insurances, professional indemnity that we need to have. Um but at the moment the ball's in their court, we're just waiting to hear back. Um I actually chased it up yesterday and they told me they'll get back to me at the beginning of the next week. So that's that's where we are with it. So so far it hasn't been. I I'd always been put off it, put off by it by a lot of people saying that it is a ball ache and there's loads of bag to go with it, but maybe those people don't operate their business like the way that we do. So a lot of the stuff that we need for MTS, we we already do it anyway, not even being MCS. So we've got complaints procedures, we've got a quality management system. Um so yeah, we we tick a lot of those boxes already.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

You're you're going with NAPIT as well, aren't you?

SPEAKER_01 11:30

So my application is currently in the very early stages with an ICA, I see. Right, right. Um more than anything, it was uh with the issues NAPET had certainly last year with getting out to do the surveillance visits. It put me off a little bit. Um, but from what I gather, all of them are pretty slow to get out to you anyway now. So uh it may not be that there was any benefit going with NIC other than we can uh we can do the competent person scheme for for air conditioning with them so we can self-certify all through one body that way.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

Such a fascinating niche sort of sector. We we were chatting offline, weren't we, Liam? Yeah, there's I think there's eight, I think there's eight um certification bodies that will do this for heat pumps. So like when you engineers decide you want to go MCS, you have to pick one of these eight uh certification bodies to go with, and then you pay them your yearly subscription, they come out and audit your work. So there's eight of them that so that they're competitive with each other, so they're all you know, you you are their market essentially. And I I'm just surprised, one of them hasn't sort of thought, right, let's do something really, really, really different. Let's try and get as many of these engineers as possible and do something really, really well. They don't, I I mean, I know Napet, I think, has 40%, I think, of engineers, but they were quite big anyway because they come from the electrical world. Um, but I I don't see them, I don't see any of them really sort of not one of them has sort of sort of sort of done something that's really, really special to sort of capture the attention of your engineers because every engineer I speak to that starts this process of going through their MCS finds it quite laborious, cumbersome. Some people get lucky and it seems to go quite seamlessly for them, but it does seem to be a bloody rigmarole. And then, of course, when you are with a CB, you're relying on them, whoever comes out to audit your work, you kind of want them to know what they're on about. Because I mean, you you guys, for instance, are elite engineers, you're guild engineers, you're great engineers. And arguably, most of the assessors out there, because they're not on the tools every day, they don't see what what the real world is anymore. I'm a qualified assessor, I'm quite a highly qualified assessor, but I I wouldn't want to assess you two because I wouldn't really know what you know, you're you're far more competent than me, as you would be, and this is one of the things I'm currently saying at the moment. You know, the people that really understand what current best practice is can only be the people practicing. You can only understand current best practice if you practice, you know, all these lovely, wonderful people I know in Sib City and the Child Institute. If you're not practicing, you won't know. They won't know what you people do because, as you know, it's quite a dynamic industry, it's constantly changing. No one can know everything. I mean, we've got 30 people in our WhatsApp group, and you're all chatting with each other, everyone's learning from each other. And it's because another problem we've got is there is so much stuff out there, you know, in the heating world. There's a lot of equipment, a lot of makes and models of borders. We've now got all this other technology coming in. It's it's I I think there'll be a bit of a problem in the future. You know, who's gonna maintain this sheer amount of technology out there? Because it's all so different. I mean, your dad will remember Liam, because obviously, Liam, you come from a family company, your dad was a plumber heating engineer, you know. Back when thermal stores were being put into new builds, you know, the people will be living in them new builds of a thermal store for a few years, it'll break down, they'd get on Google or however they would find a plumber, the plumber would come around, wouldn't have a clue what they're looking at, say, yeah, but that don't work. We'll put a combi in. And that's what was going on. Uh, because there's just so much stuff, not everyone can know about all this stuff. I mean, we've got a lot of heat pumps uh in the sector. I mean, I think you two will make have you got particularly mates you like to work with? I mean, we'll come on to manufacturers in in a bit because that's a good topic to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

We work mostly with Valent. Um, we have used uh a couple of other brands. Um we found Valent here. It might just be one of those that when you install something a lot, you like it because you s you get used to it. But um it's it's our go-to.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

You're the same, Michael. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Uh yeah, I think with us when we're selecting a I've done a post about a couple of months ago now. When we're selecting manufacturers, we look at how they can support our customers in the we in the unlikely event that anything goes wrong, it's the customers that's dealing with it more more than us. Obviously, we want to get it sorted for them. But so valence seems to go to in the heat pump world. Um we're not really a fan of valent boilers, not as in functionality and and reliability, just the after sales. If something goes wrong, their afters doesn't seem as good. So in the boiler world, we're as always uh Worcester Bosch. Same with the air conditioning world, we've we've moved over to Worcester Bosch, just that because they've got the guys on the ground who will go out and and and get things sorted. They don't really dispute. I don't know where if just because I thought we've always had a good relationship with them, they don't really dispute any warranty calls that we we put in. It's very rare that we put one in. That's the last time we've done one.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

That's when the Worcester has done really well in the industry, isn't it? They built a great reputation for that that support.

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd be the sort of number one historically for that support. Um they can't kind of back from the triumph. So my dad was one of the 12 technical reps of Triangle Red Fire, and then they got rid of all their technical reps. Triangle Red Fire literally went from number one spot to bottom. Worcester Bosch took number one spot, and they sort of adopted that model of having a very, very good support network, and they've always seemed to have had that. I was chatting to Joe Shepherd, the new CEO the other day, actually. Um, it's interesting the heat pumps of how Valent seemed to sort of capture the market. Uh, you know, it's one of the big four boiler companies. Valent arguably have captured the majority of the market, haven't they, with USMEs, I would say. Uh as opposed to Bosch. Whereas in Boiler World, like you said, Michael, you know, that you that would still be your number one go-to because you've got that technical backup and support. Same with air to air stuff. They've been doing you know, comfort cooling, comfort heating systems for a long time now, Bosch, uh, more than the other boiler manufacturers. Um, some of the some of the groups they belong to do the air to air stuff. Now you're both you both uh you already do air to air, don't you, Michael? And I think you do them as well, don't you?

SPEAKER_03 17:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:00

And how have you sort of seen uh well I know you have, it's a rhetorical question. Have you seen a lot of customer interest since we've had all these heat waves in uh in what you can do with air to air?

SPEAKER_00 18:13

So we we've been doing air to air for I think it's coming up six years now. So we was I can't remember why we why we got into it originally. Probably a heat wave six years ago. But um so we so yeah, we got into it then and and um as much as you do the training and the qualification, a bit like your bit like your gas qualification, um it doesn't show you how to actually put the unit on the wall um and all the little the little bits that you learn with it. Um but I think we've we we learned that quite quickly, so now we're sort of we we can get on with most things now. And we had a lot of units. Yeah, this year, yeah this year would yeah, it was it was a great year this year, um till the till the product shortages. Um and because because we're sort of all egg we were all eggs in one basket with with Bosch this year, um when it comes to their shortage, we was quite fortunate that we'd stopped a lot up just by chance. Um we stopped up quite a bit before the announcement came about them being out of stock. And then you get merchants saying, Well, we've got this supplier in stock, this supplier in stock, and we just shied away from that really because we didn't know enough enough about the product. We could have just gone, yeah, guess that we're gonna fit it and and and we'll make some money, but I didn't feel comfortable fitting products that we'd had we had no relationship with, we don't know no history with. Um so yeah, we're just we're we're we're busy enough doing plenty of other things. Uh we we just shied away from that for now.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Is there a particular product you like, Liam, in the air to wear Will?

SPEAKER_01 19:51

We're we're much newer to it than Michael, so we're still trying to find the brands that that we want to be working with on a regular basis. Yeah. Um the the chances are that we will be with Sheba and Dakin, possibly Panasonic. Dakin, we've got a decent relationship with the local rep because he was a rep in the gas world earlier that we dealt with in the past. But yeah, we uh we're certainly not being uh been as involved with it. But cool and it doesn't make a big difference, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 20:24

With the with the reps, like you follow a good rep is you quite easily follow that rep if he's a good rep.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Yeah, absolutely. If you if you've got someone that you know that you can lean on if you've got an issue and that they're gonna get back to you and stuff, yeah, absolutely. They can have got training centres not that far from here as well, so you know it makes sense that we've got somewhere that we can go and we can go additional training and and pick up on on specific lines and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 20:51

Yeah, Dave can make a kit been around it a long, long, long time. And Mark, what training did you do that for back in the day? You so you went out and did your FGAS, and then but you hit on something quite important there. You know, you you kind of learn a lot about this while you're actually on the job, don't you? It's it's getting used to doing things like vacuum down and tightness testing and prep strength tests and all this sort of stuff, and gauges. I mean, gauges still confuse me. Um I've been around them a long time. I mean I've always just laboured for my cousin, but but yeah, I've watched it going on lots and lots of times, but quite confusing, and I can see a lot of it, I can see a lot of people getting it wrong because they go on these FGAS courses. I I don't know how long the F-Gas course is, I'm I'm assuming something another three-day course, but maybe it's longer.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

And uh I think when I've done it, it was like uh it was like I think it was like four days one week, and then you came back the next week and done three, four days.

SPEAKER_01 21:48

That's when I was um mine was five days including assessment. Right, right. I I might just pick things up more quickly than than Mickey does though.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Well you you you Northerners are a bit quicker than our southerners, aren't you? Um but do you can you see um can you see issues with the air to I mean obviously I know you guys and a lot of the other guild engineers are sort of getting quite enthusiastic about this stuff and the sort of science behind it, the technology behind it, doing it right. Can you see a problem though as it becomes more popular and it will become more popular? This stuff, this stuff is actually quite easy to bosh in, just like a combi is. And do you think that is going to be a problem?

SPEAKER_00 22:34

I think it's just exactly I think it's exactly the same as the boilers. It's if if you want it's it's not difficult to I think anyone anyone would be able to install it, but it's whether they know how to install it. I think like when we first started out, yeah, we made mistakes and obviously we learned from that. But when we made mistakes, we made sure that we put it right. We didn't just walk away from it and just think, oh, we'll worry about that another day. We learn from it and make sure that mistake doesn't happen again. And I think it all comes down to I think we said earlier with recruitment, it all comes down to the attitude and the effort of the installer. These people fitting the F gas who are just doing these quick courses and think they can just bosh them in, then them installations are gonna be unreliable, they're gonna break down. And same with the boiler world, you've got people slinging in combis that are gonna break down or on dirty systems. Yeah, I think the the good people ain't got nothing to worry about. I think that if you go to a good installer, you're gonna get a good job.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

So it's is I mean it remains quite hard for the customer out there, doesn't it? They're surrounded by all this media talk of new technology, they're not new in but new to them, and it's very, very hard for them to sort of uh a lot of the time it's luck. You know, they come across people like yourselves. I'd I'd say you know, they haven't sort of seen you advertise e.g. through HeatGeek or myself, you know, they've basically been very, very lucky and probably don't realise how competent an engineer they've got because unfortunately, a lot of engineers out there, not necessarily their fault, there's just some stuff they they don't know, they don't know that they don't know it, and it's um it's not it's hard to be not their fault because they've never really been told that that's the stuff they have to know as well. Um, which is why when Adam came on with his HeatGeek course and Kim started up his course, it sort of revived a bit of enthusiasm about heating again. For the people like yourselves, you you kind of get passionate about the science y type aspect of it and you know what is the best way to do certain things because there's 101 ways to do things in our industry, and obviously the good engineers want to do it right. Um, and I think we are going to have a bit of a problem because uh I don't think everyone wants to do it right, if I'm honest. Uh, you can earn a bit of money in this I never did, but you can earn a bit of money in this industry, and I think people are realising it. We've seen a lot of people move into this industry who were never in the industry before and setting up companies, and some will probably do a good job. Uh you know, they might be doing it for the right reasons. But I can see a lot of tears because unlike a boiler, if you get this heat pump, air-to-water heat pumps wrong, you know, it's it's horrible for the customer. They're paying expensive bills, you know, costly utility bills, and you know, things break down, that they're you know, they're they're in a bit of a predicament, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 25:25

I think that is a bit of a double-edged sword for for people like for like us, where the negative press uh of heat pumps puts a lot of people off, but it does also mean that a lot of the people who are looking at it are spending more time researching engineers, they're not just finding the person who comes top of top of Google, they're spending time to make sure they're gonna get a reliable product that isn't gonna bankrupt them in the first winter. Um, so I you know, I think a lot of the ban installers out there are it's in some senses doing us a favour. It's uh but it it is a bit both.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

Do you guys both pick up any maintenance work? Do you get sort of customers ringing you up and say they've got a heat pump already and it's broken down? Can you come and have a look at it? Do you see much of that type of work?

SPEAKER_01 26:17

We do, but we uh very rarely go out to them. Um we're just that busy on our own stuff and keeping on top of the maintenance of customers that we've fitted heat pumps for over the last four years. It's difficult to get out, and it's also you never know what you're going into. Like even if you just go to service once someone else has fitted, you can spend the morning there. When you go to one that there's known problems on, um you know, you you could be into a day of looking at hits trying to figure out what's been done, let alone what was going through the head when they did it.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Either same, Mark, are you you just tend to stay away from He took the words out of my mouth, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:59

If we get inquiries from people just send a long, normally a long old list of of issues, or they don't quite know how to sort something out, and yeah, we're just we're busy enough doing what we're doing with our own customers, same as what Liam said there. We we haven't got capacity to be taking on anything like that at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

So this is a bit when you mentioned the double-edged edged sword then. So, in a sense, you've got the engineers doing their due diligence finding guys like yourselves, and they're gonna be okay. But there's a lot of people out there, had rubbish installs, and now they've got the added problem, they can't find a very good engineer to come and rectify them. So the engineer that probably does come around to have a little go at it and get it working, and probably charge them an extra amount and doesn't actually do much. So they've got that problem as well, haven't they?

SPEAKER_01 27:51

So I think that's part of the problem that because to to go and find what the fault is, what the issue is on an existing system, and a lot of the time you can go there and by the time you've got the door fully open on the cylinder cupboard, you can already see 10 things that are wrong. But to really nail it down and to be able to say to them, Oh, yeah, by doing this, you're gonna see this improvement. You know, they're gonna be part with that much money that you look like the one who's ripping people off rather than the person who's done the bad job in the first place. Yeah, and of course, at that point, there's no grant funded, there's no zero VAT. It's you know, everything's coming out of their pocket.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

Yeah, definitely a big market for retrospective remedial. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's definitely a big market for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something to entertain those people because they're looking for people. So we've the closest we've come to that, we've had two heat pump installations where they were they were old RHI installations and we've ripped it out, and um, they were both split systems actually. We've ripped it out and put in new installations and the customers that shit. We've just done one's first year service uh this week and um this morning actually, and um they're over the moon. I can't believe it's like chalk and cheese for their system before. And then they didn't get no government grant for our installation, they've had to pay that the whole the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Um where we went and took out a new build uh new build house built with a uh drastically oversized Mitsubishi heat pump. We went and fitted a uh a second hand uh balance for him, and he went from it being like something like 1.8 up to about four on his stock. We also removed about six pumps that weren't being monitored, so the actual energy reduce reduction was probably much bigger.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

Do you do you guys you mentioned new builds earlier? Do you guys get involved in new builds? Do you work for any of the developers? No, no, we don't.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

We definitely move builds, don't work for no builders. Yeah, no, with we work for homeowners directly, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Yeah, we're the same. We we don't even really get involved. Well, a little bit with extensions if a homeowner inquires and they're having an extension done, but mostly we're retrofit.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Is there a reason you you don't work with builders? Have you had your fingers burnt in the past? Because I know it is hard sometimes. Have you ever a few bad ones?

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Touch wood. I I've I've not, but I've heard from plenty of people that have, so I've not put myself in that position to car. We work we work alongside builders with homeowners for like big renovations, but we make it clear to the homeowner that we work for them, we don't work for the builder.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

I know a question I I want to ask. Did do you use um I'll tell you the reason I'll ask it in a minute. So do you use third-party surveyors? So obviously, having run this podcast about eight years, um, I have a lot of people sort of contact me to sort of ask me sort of questions and have meetings and stuff, a lot of startups. But there's a few people I've I've had sort of get hold of me who are very interested in the sector, um, maybe have worked in it, whether it's been at policy level, uh, and they they're getting into setting up companies where they go to homes and do the survey. So they do the heat loss survey, and then they've got a potential job, and then that's a lead for engineers, and obviously, because I sort of run the guild, that's I think that's why they get in in contact with me. But I've got mixed reports. Some engineers don't like third-party surveys, some engineers don't mind, especially if they know who's doing them, they can they can sort of sense that they they actually understand what they're doing. But do you do your own surveys? Do you use particular software, or do do you would you trust a third-party surveyor?

SPEAKER_01 31:43

We do all our own. Um, I do know there was there was one that set up a few years ago that um some of the guys in the guild I think had used and said they were really good. Uh, to me, as as well as doing the heat loss survey, um, while I'm there, I can do the spec. I can make sure that it's actually doable. I know and have had eyes on the job. Um although I'd be happy to give an estimate based off a third-party um heat loss survey. I wouldn't want to turn up to a job with a load of kit order based off what somebody else had done. And I would always want to double check that survey myself.

SPEAKER_02 32:24

Yeah. Yeah, what about you, Michael?

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Yeah, I think I would um we I'll do I'll do all our surveys. Um to give it to to even chance it with a third party, they'd have to have some mustard TV or experience to to take a chance in in them's designing a system for us. Um and also it comes down to the to the homeowners as well. We get well, we get good feedback that generally these people shop around and get more than one quote, which we encourage, it's a big investment for them. They want to make sure they're getting what they're what they're happy with. And when we do a survey, I think they like the fact that it comes from it's it's more of an installer's perspective survey. We're not a salesman, we're not we're not coming from one of these national companies that are just there and saying, Yes, yes, yes, you can have this, you can have this, and then the installer that they have done, these things like these national companies have two stages of their survey. They have a salesman go over there first, or saleswoman, give them an estimate saying, Yeah, you can have this, you can yeah, just bend it over backwards, then have a technical survey once afterwards, and they're like, Oh no, actually, you can't have that, you can't have that. So I think they they like that it comes from an installer's perspective.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

I've always found that interesting. Yeah, you're right. The big entities will have salespeople make that first contact for with the customer. And I've always found that an interesting concept because salespeople are salespeople, yeah. My little brother's been in that corporate sales world for a long time. I mean, half the time, people in that world sell stuff that they don't actually know anything about or believe in. They're just very, very good at um, you know, they've got great people skills, they're good at selling. But of course, you know, this is a complex system, expensive for a customer. And, you know, that's sales pitch. I'd if I was a customer, I'd be very uncomfortable with that sales pitch. I'd want to be speaking to the person that actually knows kind of what what they're on about, which I think is where if you do, you do, if you do your own surveys, uh I think you engender that trust more with a with a customer. I mean, I'm not sure, like so. There's a lot of people that want to get into this third-party survan. And when I've chatted to them, I say, well, you know, the other advantage is when an engineer goes around, and you said it, Lim, yes, they're doing the heat loss, but but their tacit knowledge is picking up on stuff. They're picking up on what way the floorboards are running. Are the floorboards going to be hard to lift up? You know, they're 500-year-old oak panels, you don't really want to be lifting them up. You know, and the airing cupboard, for instance, you you us three could look at in an airing cupboard in a nanosecond, we don't know we're doing it, we're doing it subconsciously. We can spot a lot of things in just a nanosecond, just by their positioning, etc. etc. Whereas someone that's very, very competent at assessing building fabric wouldn't know that knowledge around the current heating system the person's got. And sometimes that makes a big difference. They might have an open-vented system, they might already have an unvented system, and I think that's where it helps if the actual um installation company is doing the survey themselves because they're picking up on them on them little little things, aren't they?

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Do you I think for that for that I think for that third-party survey, again, I think like the remedials, there is a market there for it, but it would have to be someone it'd have to be someone well respected in the industry who has got a reputation of of being a good installer. Maybe it might be a good installer that's worked to they haven't got a retire, but maybe they they want to they they want to wind down or they just they want to lighten the load and they've got that reputation and then they go into that surveying. I think their surveys would carry a lot more weight than Joe Block Joe blogs popping up saying I've surveyed this house and it needs ABC.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

I think one of the reasons this sort of market is starting to come about is because a lot of customers, and the the customers that have sort of engaged with me, and I know some of the customers that talk on social media, you know, they get their three quotes, for instance, and the first thing they notice is the heat loss calculations are all different. And the first thing I say to them, well, they are they are gonna be different. That'd be impossible for you to get three exactly the same. It'd be very hard because when you do an estimated calculation, no matter how good the calculation software is, it's still you know, it's kind of still making an estimation, it's a calculated estimate, and not everyone is gonna have exactly the same answer. There's gonna be a variance. Obviously, if you've got a wide range in variance, then you've got a little bit of a problem because then who do you trust? And I think that's where this whole idea of if there was a an elite third you know third party surveyors out there, but you're you're right, yeah. Who would you trust? You know, they'd have to be very, very good at it.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Who guarantees the system?

SPEAKER_00 37:07

There could be a standard.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

What's that? Yep. And who guarantees the system when it's uh working or not working or is expensive to run when you've been given the number that you need to learn it to?

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Yeah, yeah, exactly that. Yeah, who's who's responsible?

SPEAKER_00 37:21

I think you could put things out for like homeowners to look out for as part of a survey. Maybe um you could have what to what for them to expect on a survey. Like is is that is that person doing the survey? Are they are they checking your flow rate of your water, are they checking your pressure? Are they putting their head up in the loft and seeing what your your loft insulation levels are? Are they looking up, are they referencing your EPC? I know they're not the most accurate, but are they looking up to see if is it presumed that the cavity walls are for cavity walls are filled? Just all those little things that you know these salespeople probably ain't doing, they're probably just taking it straight from the EPC and saying this is the answer.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

Just noticed I've got my tea in the oven and I've left it on maximum. I've done it's gonna smoke out of the kitchen in a minute I've put I've had sausages in there for about an hour. Gee, might have the fire alarm going off in a minute. Um how how easy is it? Like, I mean, you've both been gas engineers in your time. How easy it is it for gas engineers to it's a question I always get asked. How easy is it for gas engineers to transition? And do they want to transition? I mean, would do you think the average gas engineer wants to? Because it's it's it's you know, a lot of them are probably looking at all you guys think, Crockett, there's a lot of work involved and all that. Sod that, let's just carry on to know, do what we know what we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Yeah, looking at us in his age 10 years in the last five.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

I mean, it's as it's it's as easy as they want it to be. If they want to learn it, if they're interested in it and they want to learn it, it is easy. It's nothing. We're not reinventing anything. All the information's there that you need.

SPEAKER_02 39:13

But is that the problem, Michael? Do you think the average gas engineer wants to learn more stuff, or are they just happy just sticking heating systems in there?

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Um, yeah, they're they're happy slinging borders in. There's there's there's good money to be made in in slinging borders, but there's no you're not you're not building a a business, you're not growing a business, and there's no future in your business if you're just slinging borders in every day.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

I think it's certainly a certain type of person. Um I agree that it's not a difficult transition to make. You know, there's a little bit of learning um in terms of the the knowledge that you need for it, and then there is the on-site learning. I remember my very first heat, very first air source heat pump install, heat pump got delivered a day late. And then I'm looking at thinking, right? Why do I get the fittings to go on this then? And you know, that there's a bit of learning to do because although it is still pipes and wires, everything looks different.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

But then nothing's nothing's a secret, isn't it? Nothing in the I think in the heat pump world, nothing's a secret. There's there's probably more information shared in the heat pump world than there is in the boiler world.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Oh, definitely. And if yeah, if if you're the type of person who is um proactively out there in the social media groups and stuff looking at these things, you know, there's loads of information, probably more than you would ever want. Um but I I don't think there's any denying that it is it's much harder graft to fitting heat pumps than it is fitting boilers. Everything's heavier, there's you need more kit, it takes longer to do, it's a longer lead-in from when you first speak to a customer to when you commission that system. Um on the flip side, and I've spoken to people uh in the past who said they were ready to leave the industry. They did one of the uh on the training courses and it reignited the passion to to be doing what they do, and and now they are mostly fitting heat bumps.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

Yeah, it's interesting. I think it's when when people ask me, well, what makes a good engineer, Nathan? Well, what one of the first things I try and get across of is well, you can't you can't just spot them. It's not like you look at a heating engineer and you think, well, they're really, really good, because you are a completely mixed, heterogeneous, diverse bunch. You all share the same thing, you all love learning. And uh you know, some of you probably didn't like school, some of you probably didn't go on to university, some of you did. So there's no hard and fast rules with what makes a good engineer, apart from it's someone that really has a passion for wanting to learn. So a lot of the heating engineers I do meet, they're brilliant at what they do, they can get your boiler going again late at night, which is exactly what you want when your boiler's broken down. You don't need someone to come in and know all the science about heating, you just want that boiler working. Some fantastic people out there that can do that, but they don't want to know anything else. You know, we're not chat to them about heat, but yeah, they don't bloody work, Nathan. What you want about? You just know you've got to end the conversation there because it's not worth even because they're happy with what they do, they know what they do. Uh, you know, they're not borderless things as such, they they know how to repair borders, there's still people out there that can do that, and but they have absolutely zero interest in kind of learning anything more than what they now know. Um, they're at a happy medium, and that's interesting because but like you say, there's there's some of you that for some reason you you got that interest was sparked, whether it was a course, whether it was Adam's course or Kimbo's course or whatever, just chatting to other people. And you spark that passion. It's not just something uh you you think, right, I'll go off and do a few courses. You'll you constantly like learning from each other, you do it all the time. You know, I see it daily with all your hundreds of messages that I have to keep up with. But there's there is a lot of learning. What one of the interesting things is what you learn about is not so much the technology or process and how you do things, but sort of business sense. Yeah, simple things like you know, what insurances are you all using for? I think Liam, you asked a question the other day about insurances, didn't you? And uh because there's so much when you run a business, there's so much other stuff to run it. And some some of you seem to be very, very good at running businesses. Um and you you're sharing information about that because that is a big part of it, isn't it? If you're gonna run a company, you've got to kind of run it successfully, otherwise you you you lose profit and you and you go and solve them. So there's a lot of business strategy that that that uh gets talked about as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 43:36

It it's an expensive hobby, otherwise. But yeah, I think uh that there's some people who who really love that side of things and probably enjoy learning and improving that side of the business as much as they do the technical side. Um I am much more interested in the how things work, and I'm I'm no Near as organized as it should be when it comes to doing the stuff, putting systems in place, and uh and that type of thing.

SPEAKER_02 44:07

Michael, you you strike me as someone that is. You quite like that whole business side of things. You're always sort of thinking about the business aspect as well as the the job itself, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00 44:18

Yeah, I've always I've always found it interesting. I've always I think from my background, before I went self-employed and started my own business, I was I worked for a local authority as a a contracts and compliance manager. And I was I was sitting across the table, I was I was managing a large budget for all ME. Um and I was sitting across the table from with contractors who we might be giving them two million pounds worth of work a year. And we're sitting across the table from this person asking them what I thought at the time basic questions, and they just didn't know the answers. And I was thinking, God, if you can do this, I'm I can definitely do it. And that sort of that sort of spurred me on to to sit up by myself and and and give it a go. And touch with touch wood, we're we're um making small steps every day heading in the right direction. There's some poor Rem and E contractors sat what listening to this, thinking, Oh, that would may have inspired him to do.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Yeah, they know where they are.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

There's more than one of them, to be fair.

SPEAKER_02 45:17

So as a sector, you you you guys and girls are all out there doing good work, but as a sector, we you're all very aware of what we see on social media from policy, from government. You know, they they they've got some targets, they want to decarbonize as many homes as possible, and heat pump technology has been sort of the chosen technology. Do you think we're gonna be able to do it, or do you think this whole transition is gonna take a lot slower than what people thought? Do you think it's working? Obviously, your guys and the jobs you do at you know your customers are very, very happy. But as a sector as a whole, do you think there's still some big hurdles that we need to overcome?

SPEAKER_01 45:58

I I think on the whole, that question's above my pay grade. But um in terms of the challenges I see, I think you know the employment one is a big one. Yeah, bringing enough people in that are competent to do it. Um, that said, that there are companies out there uh in HeatGeek at the moment with Zero Disrupt. The way that they're simplifying an installation process, um, both from an installer point of view and from a homeowner point of view, um, you know, stuff like that is gonna speed the transition up. You know, more homes will be decarbonised. Um and then I think you know, longer term, I think the energy market's gonna play a big part in it. Um at the moment, if you're looking at a heat pump and you're looking at it's like, well, it's gonna cost me, it's gonna take me X amount of years to pay that back. I can just get a boiler. Um, you know, well as the energy market changes, as energy storage and stuff like that changes, I think it becomes a much easier proposition to get that decarbonisation down and to to get more heat pumps, whether that's air to water or air to air, into people's homes.

SPEAKER_02 47:11

Do you guys do battery and solar as well?

SPEAKER_00 47:16

We've just done our MCS application for it. Yeah. And we've got we've got some things in the pipeline. So yeah, we're it's an area we're moving into. So I think you need to you need to be you need to be flexible to change and like the gas, obviously there's boilers around, and there's it looks like it's still going to be boilers around for a little while, but if you want to be if you want to last in this space, and I think it's silly for someone coming out of college now to go into the gas industry, I think. We're looking to steer ourselves as whole home electrification.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

So we have been wanting to move into batteries, particularly and maybe solar, but as I said, I I uh I take my eye off the business side a little uh a little bit quicker than Michael does. But um, I I I agree that um to be a to be a provider of a decarbonisation package, I think, is a really good position to be in.

SPEAKER_02 48:12

What do you what do you do? What do you do, Lynn, when you get inquiries for batteries and so do you have you got like savings you can rely on that will come and do that alongside the heat pump install you do?

SPEAKER_01 48:22

No, no, we used to um we used to try and refer them on to people, but we never found anyone. The the electrician who we use for our supplies used to uh be MCS for his solar and um not batteries because it was it I think it was during the fit time. Um he found it too much paperwork, so stopped doing it. He's slowly getting back into it through an umbrella at the minute. Um, so we may have a partner that we can work with on it. But they're a very small outfit, there's just the the two guys, um, and he did and apprentice, but he qualified and left. But that's a uh another topic, isn't it? Um yeah, yeah, big problem. Well, yeah, I at the minute it's just a case of say, well, I you know, you need to find somebody to do that. We don't really need to interface with with that. You know, the the heat pump doesn't need to touch batteries or anything. Um it will draw its energy when it needs its energy.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

And that that same story, that's how we got that's how we got into it. It was getting inquiries, same boat as what Liam's in now, saying no, sorry, we can't help you, sorry we can't help you. And it the inquiries were getting that common that I thought, well, why can't we help you? Um and then I spoke to yeah, like a local firm to us that um years ago we actually used to sub off of them installing car charges when we had an electrician on the books. Um he was doing solar panels, and his business was sort of he's was he didn't run his business uh sort of probably how we run our business, and he didn't want to entertain paperwork and and dealing with with scaffolders, roofers when it comes to solar panels, and um but the paperwork side of things with Payaka the the paperwork's quite it's quite simple really it's not there's not a lot involved in it.

SPEAKER_02 50:15

My um my sponsor like you for mentioning them. I got a couple of times. Going back to this take it off the list.

unknown 50:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

Going back to this apprenticeship thing, Liam, you just picked up something very interesting there. So from time to time, apprenticeships and apprentices get discussed in our group, and there seems to be a common theme uh among you engineers and other engineers out there that have taken on apprentices, they do their four years, they get qualified, and then they leave the company, which is which is uh which is very horrible for the company because they've invested all that time and effort into training that apprentice because they are the primary learning facilitator, it's not the college or a lecturer like me, it's the actual employer. They invested all that time, effort, their insurances go up, lots of paperwork involved, and the apprenticeship qualifiers, and then off they go because a lot of the time they can command good money now, and because this is such a new emerging market, they're a sought-after commodity, and they can go, they can set up on their own, for instance, or they can go with someone else, and that seems to be a bit of a problem, and it is quite off-putting for people taking on apprentices, isn't it? Unless they're own family members. So a lot of the lot of the apprentices I taught, most of the apprentices I've ever taught were family members of their employers. Have you have you you said you've got an apprentice, Michael, at the moment, haven't you?

SPEAKER_00 51:35

Uh yeah, so our installer, full-time installer, he was I had him as an apprentice straight from school, 16. Yeah. Um, we let him go through COVID, kept him on furlough for about a year, but just could not keep him going at that time. He went and worked for an Eco 4 company, then he wasn't happy there. Still they still hadn't finished his college, so then we always kept in touch, and then we brought him back, finished his qualification, and now he's a full-time installer, he's installing heat pumps on his own, and what on his own. And we have an apprentice that we took on about six months ago now, who works with him full-time. So for you it's worked. Yeah, but I've had I've had an apprentice before, um who was once qualified, then they left.

SPEAKER_02 52:21

It's tough, I suppose, isn't it? You put all that investment in the back.

SPEAKER_00 52:23

Yeah, but I think the different different with this one, I think obviously sometimes I I guess you you can't help it, but if you if you treat that person right and they and they feel like they're part of the team, they feel like they're part of the bigger picture. So I like to think Aristoler can see how where our business is going, and and he's excited to be a part of that. And that's the rewarding, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:45

I think that's dead true, but it's a difficult thing to do where where you can see what value they can add each week, each day. Um, and you know, you want to treat them well enough to keep them there. But sometimes when someone's just looking for an engineer and they're like, oh yeah, this lad, and you know, he's a bit cheaper than taking on someone who's had a few years' experience and he seems all right. I wonder how often their new employees are disappointed with what they can actually do. Because that's you know, if if you were worth more, you you will pay them more.

SPEAKER_00 53:17

It's you know, I don't think you get a better installer than than one you've trained up yourself. I don't think yeah, they might be doing something wrong with the training.

SPEAKER_01 53:28

To be honest, we've had it both ways where there is um we had an apprentice leave, they they'd done their apprenticeship, they'd done some additional training that we'd funded, and as soon as they'd done their workout on that additional training, they left. But then we've had our apprentice before that. Um when we were moving on to work that was out of their area, they've gone and worked for my dad's firm. And so he's probably 26 now, and he's been, you know, essentially went from me to work for my dad because that's where there was work that he was more able to do. Yeah, and uh there's no signs of him going anywhere.

SPEAKER_02 54:04

And and is it costly? Is it is it a cot quite a costly thing to take on an apprentice?

SPEAKER_01 54:10

Yeah, I think particularly when you're smaller. Um, if you've got a full-time installer and you can send them with them all the time and and you know that they're gonna be useful five days a week, it's not quite as bad. We have an is we have an apprentice at the moment who is coming and doing surveys and stuff with me as well. They're very rarely actually useful on the survey. Um they maybe speed it up by 15-30 minutes. But the days where I am doing stuff where I need to do focus work or um I'm going and doing stuff where they don't add any value, then you know, I'm they're being paid to stay at home or tired of the RDK.

SPEAKER_02 54:53

When do they start paying back then, Michael? Was it the third year, the fourth year? Where do you start seeing, oh yeah, they're they're worth it.

SPEAKER_00 55:00

Well, it depends how much depends sort of how much how much you give them, really. I think for how much they get paid for a new starting out, a minimum with a minimum wage for so the apprentice we took on six months ago, he would have been he still would have been 17. And his take home pay is just over £300 a week. And that's uh that's a I think that's a 40-hour work week. Um that's expensive for us because the output is is it's next to nothing. It's it's there's no there's no incentive or contribution to us to hire to hire an apprentice.

SPEAKER_02 55:47

And that's just wages, you've got other stuff on the street.

SPEAKER_00 55:51

Then we've got the uh the NI. I think he might be under the NI threshold. That's one thing they can have, but obviously he gets 20 20 days holiday, um sick pay. Um he's not old enough to be part of the pension. But yeah, you've got all the cost, additional insurance.

SPEAKER_01 56:09

But you pay him 20% extra to go to college on if he's if he's a day a week while you're paying him at college. Yeah, yeah, so once you're paying.

SPEAKER_00 56:17

So the the college has been absolutely terrible in actually getting him onto a course. Not him, but just I think just for them to fulfil a course. And um yeah, well, I'm I'm sort of half toying with the idea of what why am I even bothering to send him to college? He'll learn more stand with us and then just pay for him to do a his MVQ level two, like an assessment or an MVQ, like and then move him on. I don't see for him to for to lose him for that one day when he when he can start doing a bit. I don't think from from apprentices I've had in the past, it's a common theme of them going to college and the tutor wasn't there, or yeah, they they didn't do anything, or that just just like a waste of time. You think well you might as well just come to work and done something for us.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

Yeah, very frustrating in that way. All colleges around the country are uh are similar. Um, you know, they can't get they can't get competent lecturers, massive shortage of us sort of college lecturers. Uh very it's it's a broken system, and you arguably you don't even need a college. You why would you know if if uh an apprentice was sent with someone that's very competent like yourselves, they're gonna learn what they need to learn. Yes, that if theory is very important, but you can do theory as well. You don't need a college to do it, you've got heat geek courses, you've got all these other sort of things. Theory can be done while they're working with a company, you and and this whole college thing is is bizarre, it really is, and that's where all that money's going to. We're talking millions every every week.

SPEAKER_00 57:45

Well, some of that funding that we need to take on apprentices, some of that funding probably needs to go to the wages of the lecturers. Because why is it why is it a good, a knowledgeable lecturer or installer or retired, retired installer or technician? Why are they going to want to go into college for I don't know what they get paid, but I can't imagine it's it's not a lot compared to what they they earned when they was on the tools? So I don't know why they they there should be incentives to that. Even manufacturers, even manufacturers in the industry that need that, they need that industry to keep growing. Why are manufacturers not contributing to training?

SPEAKER_02 58:21

It's a good question because I was going to actually ask you both. Is there certain things that we know lots of them? There's lots of them in our industry. Is there certain things manufacturers could be doing to help this sector or to help engineers or to help the sector as a whole? Is there certain things that manufacturers could sort of step up to the plate and do that they're not doing?

SPEAKER_00 58:41

I think they could do more on like not generics, probably the wrong word, but they could they could do more on um that's the only word I can think of. They could do more on generic training instead of just their product-specific training, they could do they could do training on hydronics or on on general plumbing, so they haven't got to go into a uh don't know that I don't know if all the manufacturers know anything about that, Michael.

SPEAKER_02 59:07

You ought to be teaching them. Um well, actually, which is just a bit of a theme. You know, I've said that uh you know since we all went to the the installer show, you know, there's about five, six heat pump manufacturers that are interested in sort of doing some stuff with us skilled. And I said it's bilateral learning. You know, you the guys aren't going to just learn about your products, you're gonna learn from them you know what it's what's got going on at the you know, coal face, what it's like to be an engineer using your products, because there's so much manufacturers can learn from you guys, obviously from good engineers. I mean, historically, one of the big issues in this sector is there's been sort of like lots of uh social scientists have been sort of studying this industry for a long time. Uh the the sector will go out to engineers and ask them questions and do surveys, and we've had things like the energy savings trust heat pump trials and electrification heat pump trials, but the problem with all that is they were going to the wrong people and asking the wrong people. They were going to engineers that are qualified, uh, got all the right um accreditations, but that doesn't mean they're competent. Um, so a lot of the time, a lot of the wrong people are getting asked, and again, it's not the people getting asked it's their fault that they're not competent, it's just how our sector is at the moment. Um, whereas if they're asking very competent engineers, I think the manufacturers that they can get some good feedback and and and maybe start to do some some better stuff rather than just trying to compete with each other to sell sell more boxes. Um yeah, I I think manufacturers can help out with apprenticeships a little bit more. I know Valent do, but Valent sort of sponsor 10 apprentices, I think, something like that system they've got, which seems to be quite working quite well. Uh hopefully more manufacturers can sort of support you engineers doing that. I think that would be beneficial. Um well, lads, I'm gonna have to check more sausages in a minute because as soon as I open this oven door, I think the go. We've had a little hour, that's gone quick. What are you guys doing tomorrow? It's Tuesday tomorrow. What have you got on?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:07

I'm back on surveys again. Tomorrow we've got a pretty much a full week of surveys.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:12

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

Do you like them, Liam?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:14

Surveys.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:15

Love them.

unknown 1:01:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:16

I get to go out, get to go out, chat to people, meet them, you know, have a nose around people's houses. It's my favourite part of the job, really, is that it's where it gets to interact with people the most.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:26

And then what do you do? You whittle them down, you do a load of surveys, like Nick, this week you're doing loads of surveys, and then you sort of whittle down which jobs you kind of want.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

Well, yeah, most of the time, by the time I've gone and done a survey, I will have spoken to someone. Um, depending which route they come to us, if if a lead comes lead, if a person gets in touch with me directly, I will usually book a phone call with them and have a chat with them. Um, so I've usually got an idea of whether I want to be working with someone or not, anyway. I've found that since we've moved into heat pumps, I I I really like the customers that we work for. The people who want to do it are my kind of people. Um, so it's very, very rare that we don't want to do a job for someone. Um, so then it's just going out, making sure that it can be done and you know getting all the uh the paperwork together for them, getting the costings together. It would only be in fact, even if we get a uh a job passed us through HeatGeek, because we've got to arrange the date, I will normally have a chat with them beforehand anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:30

What you got too, Michael?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:33

Uh tomorrow I've got two commissions for heat pumps we installed. Um we we generally book them up like a few days after the installation's complete.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:44

Um especially if they finish on a Friday, we try and sort of we like to have like a nice relaxed commission instead of like end of the day, let's get it done. Um so yeah, just two commissions tomorrow, um, plenty of emails to catch up on. And then Wednesday, but I've got 10 uh phone calls for air conditioning and heat pump, just just conversations just to see whether we're going to be suitable for them.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:11

Yeah, yeah. And when you say commission, that's not just the technical side, it's a handover as well.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:18

This is where you're hand over control. Probably a better way to describe it, actually.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

Well, you're kind of doing both, aren't you? You you commission the system, make sure it's all running, and then all your checks. But what the the the I suppose the important part in a way, in it, but a lot a lot of people do it. Uh, well, not as many people should do it, um, is so that customer feels very, very informed about what they've got, how it's gonna work, what they've got to do if it stops working, how how they live with it. I I don't think well, I I think that's a skill, it's a people-to-people skill, isn't it? When when we're chatting to people customers, obviously lots of customers, all different sorts of customers out there. Some of them are gonna know way, way probably more technology than than than we do in some ways. They might be professors in physics or something, exactly how the vapor compression cycle was. But but it's a very interesting process, isn't it? You've got to be able to uh try and work out what that customer is gonna be able to take on board, you know, be able to cognitively take on board because it's quite complex. It's a it's a new way of often it's a new, it's definitely a new heating system for most people. So that is a big, big part of it, the handover, isn't it? And I suppose testament to you guys, you you're very good at it. I think, I do worry, there's some very, very, very good engineers out there that when it comes to people at interaction, they're not that good, and that handover process is either too quick or it's not involved enough because they kind of just want to get out there and on to the next job. They're they're good engineers, but they're not good at that sort of and that endpoint, that handover, is is quite an important part of the job, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:48

I think I think your your handover is like you it's um it's it's as easy as what the information you've given up front. So from the survey, the stuff you've mentioned, from the from the installation, the stuff that your your installer man mentioned throughout the process, that when it comes to it, and you're talking about the setup and the control, it's already registering their mind, like, oh yeah, that's that. Oh, that's yeah, that's oh the that's the sensor you said was going outside. Yeah, that's the one that's gonna yeah, oh, and this is your setback temperature. I remember we spoke about how far you want it set back overnight. Oh, and and we've set your curve up. Remember, we said about your temperature is gonna be adjusting with the outdoor temperature. It it when you when you sort of set them up at the beginning with them small increments, when it comes to the commission at the end, they're they're they're normally quite on board.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:39

I mean, it's a skill in its own right, isn't it? That handover process, I'd say. Well, it's it's a people-to-people thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:46

Yeah, it and it's another one of those things that's difficult to employ somebody that can do and another one of those skills that you need to have if you run a business. That yeah, we we certainly didn't cover it when I was doing my MVQ.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

Yeah, that whole community. I mean, they do there is a communication module win in it. There always has been in that NVQ, but it's it's rubbish, if I'm honest. Guys, well, you have a great, fantastic day tomorrow. I'm gonna go and eat more tea if it's not burnt.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:16

Uh what you what are you doing tomorrow, Nathan?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:19

What am I doing tomorrow? What am I doing tomorrow? Gosh, what am I doing tomorrow? So uh I've got uh my my best mate's um two daughters, one of them lives in Australia, she's lived in Australia for seven years. She's back, she got back yesterday, so we're we're doing bits and pieces with the kids. So we're taking them to uh High Lodge tomorrow, which is one of these things where they can climb about the trees, there's all these sort of pulley systems, go ape, it's called. So I'm doing that. I'm being a big kid tomorrow with uh with one of my goddaughters, lots of kids. Quite quite an easy day, and probably just keeping up to date with the uh guild WhatsApp group. And then uh oh, and then Thursday, Phil, who's in he's one of the sort of master eating engineers, you know, my cousin on sort of the air-to-air side. He's taken me uh to the Royal Abbott Hall. I think it's something to do with the last night at the primes. There's a Miles Davis thing going on there with the orchestra. So we're going for a meal at the Royal Abbott Hall and watching that, so that'd be nice.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:20

It's a tough week for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:22

Yeah, that all my listeners are now thinking, Coggy, does he do any work? It's a very it's an unusual week this week. Yeah. Uh I'm enjoying myself. Nice one, lads. Thank you ever so much for coming on Baker Talk.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:40

Thank you.