E.ON & Podero: Can We Automate Whole-Home Energy?

Episode Summary

Guests: Zac Curtis (Innovation Lead for NextGen Home at E.ON) & Chris Bernkopf (CEO of Podero)

How do you scale residential Energy as a Service (EaaS) without upfront capital? E.ON and Podero’s 18-home Midlands pilot demonstrates that combining automated zero-upfront multi-asset orchestration (heat pumps, solar PV, batteries, and EV chargers) into a single 10-year fixed tariff wrapper can achieve a +56 Net Promoter Score and stable household comfort. However, scaling this model to a broader target market of 680,000 homes depends entirely on overcoming physical installation bottlenecks, correcting widespread heat pump commissioning errors, and transitioning manufacturer software platforms from standalone thermodynamic efficiency (COP) toward predictive, time-of-use cost-curve steering.

Technical Insights

1. The Financial Architecture of Energy as a Service (EaaS)

• The core financial barrier to residential grid decarbonisation is the high upfront capital cost of low-carbon assets.
• The E.ON NextGen Home pilot addresses this by completely eliminating initial capital expenditure for the consumer. All hardware—including Vaillant heat pumps, SolarEdge solar arrays, and home batteries—is deployed at zero upfront cost.
• The asset capital paydown is amortised over a 10-year term and embedded directly into a stable, single monthly fixed tariff wrapper.
• To mitigate risk when a homeowner relocates during the contract term, the asset value is transferred to the property valuation. The incoming buyer inherits an optimised, low-operational-bill home with the initial capital pay-down effectively cleared through the house sale.
• Following the 18-home proof of concept, E.ON is planning a proactive call for entries to scale up to a representative sample of over 300 homes. This next phase will target specific home archetypes and a diverse mix of consumer behaviours to stress-test the model's mass-market viability.

2. Multi-Asset Software Orchestration vs. Standalone COP

• Traditional heating controls are built to maximise standalone thermodynamic efficiency (COP).
• In modern dynamic, time-of-use energy systems where wholesale electricity pricing fluctuates sharply between midday and evening peaks, maximising standalone efficiency is an outdated metric.
• To generate true running-cost savings, Podero’s platform bypasses physical gateways to communicate via cloud APIs directly with the assets every few minutes.
• The software engine shifts focus toward predictive cost-curve steering by calculating the exact building energy deficits and the specific thermal deferral capacity (the duration a building envelope can safely delay or store heat load without dropping interior comfort).

3. Supply Chain Quality and "Unconscious Incompetence"

• The deployment of automated multi-asset steering lives or dies on physical installation quality.
• A significant portion of the UK installation supply chain suffers from unconscious incompetence—well-meaning installers who lack the specific expertise required for low-carbon engineering.
• Common field errors, such as incorrect heat pump commissioning, frequently cause internal backup electric immersion heating rods to run continuously, driving up electricity consumption.
• Additionally, the transition of the UK heating industry into a fragmented landscape of self-employed sole traders complicates the rapid dissemination of best practices. Overcoming this requires a strict, synchronised "waterfall" installation process to handle complex asset interdependencies over a tight five-day window.

4. Expanding Beyond Air-to-Water Archetypes

• To scale the EaaS framework past the initial pilot phase toward a representative market sample of 300+ homes, utilities must look beyond standard air-to-water heat pump systems.
• To accommodate tight mid-terraced houses and flats where external space or pipework disruption prevents traditional setups, the pilot is actively evaluating alternative low-carbon technologies.
• This includes compact, single-room heat pump configurations operating without external units, localised infrared matting, low-electricity radiant solutions, and smart electric boilers dedicated to domestic hot water (DHW) production.

Industry Resources & Links

• Host Profile: Nathan Gambling, Head of Technical Education at BetaTeach and host of the BetaTalk podcast. 
• Referenced Data Expert: Mick Wall (Sheffield University), field data analyst tracking "The Holy Trinity" of integrated heat pump, battery, and solar performance telemetry. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

So, welcome to another episode of BetaTalk. I'd like to thank the Guild patrons who sponsor BetaTalk, and they are Payaka, Primary Pro, Esby, the Wolsey Renewable Centre, UK Radiators and Castrads. Now, today I've got Chris Bernkopf on from Padero, the CEO of Podero, and I've got with him Zach Curtis from Eon, who's the innovation lead at Eon for something called NextGen Home, and I'm going to let them explain exactly what Next Gen Home is. It sounds quite exciting. So welcome to the to the show, guys. Zach, uh, you're from Eon, and like I've just introduced there, you're doing something called NextGen Home. So I suppose if you just eluded that or give us a synopsis about what that's all about.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Yes, absolutely. So NextGen Home is a small-scale trial of your right and energy as a service proposition, uh, where for no money up front, we hope to be able to encourage the adoption of low-carbon assets, heat pumps, batteries, inverters, solar panels, and if wanted, um, EV chargers to homes in time across the UK. One of the challenges that we've experienced is that customers are willing to drive their own sustainable behaviors. They're willing to do things which future-proof their homes, but they'd rather focus on getting a low energy bill. Uh, and then sustainable behaviors will come if we make it super simple for them. So, energy as a service generally, meaning no money up front, single fixed price for their energy and assets included, means that we can we can deliver those things. We can deliver low carbon behaviors and we can provide a reasonably priced bill as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

So that's obviously been one of the barriers, hasn't it? So the up the upfront cost has obviously been a bit of a barrier for for all sorts of people, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Yeah, I mean for most homes. I mean, mine included, and I'm sure lots of the listeners as well, trying to find around 18,000 pounds to install all of those measures is really challenging. Not many people have 18,000 pounds lying around. Um I know I certainly don't. Uh so yeah, finding a way of providing it with no upfront cost in a meaningful way would be the goal.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

And and Chris, you uh your company provides the very, very clever technical, and I'm not technical by any stretch of the imagination, uh, software and platform that can sort of bring all this technology together so it works seamlessly. Is that right?

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Yeah, exactly. So we're sort of the control piece to the proposition. So of course the the financing uh the in the energy comes from from Ian, uh, from Zach. Uh and then we provide the access control. So that means essentially we um integrate with the different OEMs, so your electric vehicle charger, your electric vehicle, uh, then virtually the battery, uh, the heat pump. Uh, we then read data from those devices um every few seconds, every few minutes, and then we figure out what the best way to use energy is in order to reduce um those bills. So that means essentially using more energy when it's cheap and less energy when it's expensive relative to the day, um, so that we can you know optimally use uh energy throughout the household, depending, of course, on the season, if you're producing high amounts of solar or not, uh that changes as well.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

And and this sort of uh pertains to that the sort of flexibility piece that a lot of my colleagues talk about, doesn't it? So it helped it helps the grid as well as the homeowners, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 3:47

Part of the sorry Chris. Part of the goal of providing a single fixed price for a customer, uh, which includes the pay down of the assets, but also optimized energy, is then shifting uh shifting your energy use out of peak automatically uh by the use of the battery based on certain conditions which Chris can go into.

SPEAKER_03 4:12

Yeah, absolutely. And so I guess the uh you can in general um the the you know divide between the two different ways you can you can earn those revenues. So first you have the the shifting of um energy out of the peaks. So that means you know, charge a new power at night, or you know, run T pump uh in the middle of the day when prices uh are are cheaper. Uh the second generate arbitrage earnings. So the the energy market is sort of like a stock market where uh essentially you can you can say, well, I'll I'll buy energy at two, I'll sell it at four, and potentially if the prices are right, you can make a profit. And then the third thing is we can we can balance the grid. And so that means essentially um that when the grid is under a lot of strain, you can get paid to reduce or increase energy consumption. And thus there's another revenue stream. So all these together, of course, uh that reduce the customer's goals.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

So when you say a fixed price, Zach, if if uh you know with with Chris's software platform, we we're bringing costs, running costs down, does the does the customer see that, or do they pay a fixed monthly price? That's always a flat fixed price, and then obviously if you manage to sort of get energy cheaper, you guys, your end, that sort of seen your end. How does that work?

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Yeah, so the the product is modeled on a particularly complex modeling, uh, as you can imagine. And the really the goal for us of that optimization that Chris described is to try and maintain that fixed price. Sometimes it'll be over, sometimes under, but over the course of the term, uh typically 10 years, then we should even out. Um we have built in a uh buffer to make sure that we don't, but the goal is not about the energy company or Padero making huge amounts of profit, it's actually about trying to give the customer as low a price as possible by optimizing those assets. So everything that Chris's company does goes towards trying to maintain that fixed price, and the customer just pays that fixed price. The challenge perhaps is in trying to provide something which is completely bespoke for every customer. So it's not like there's one price for next gen home for all people. The pricing is based on your previous energy usage and how you how you experience energy in the home, and then we model it based on that, and then of course there's Chris weather predictions and future energy predictions and um day-ahead wholesale pricing, etc.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Like I said, Chris, I'm not technical at all. Is is that quite a hard thing to do with with all you code coding engineers and software? Is it is it quite a hard thing to do and manage?

SPEAKER_03 6:45

Yeah, I guess the the complexity comes, as Zach mentioned, as having the right fit and the right optimization, the right uh device uh control per home. Because of course every house is different. So, you know, as Zach mentioned, it starts with the forecasting, understanding how a person uses energy, you know, when they drive their car, when they charge, what charge level, you know, when they heat, how much warm water they use, and all these things fused together in a software model that predicts. Uh, and based on that, we then overlay that with uh the price forecasts and uh information on what um Ion thinks the markets will do. And then out of that comes a uh a custom um steering solution or asset optimization solution, if you will, for every device. Now we rerun this optimization every 15 minutes, uh, in some cases every one minute. So you every house is steered live and bespoke. Um and that of course adds complexity. Now you also have to deal with you know different OEM brands. So, you know, of course, there's probably 20 major car brands uh the same for heat pumps and inverters. So there's complexity at being compatible with all of them and also uh having the right um you know control surfaces, so being uh allowed to send the right commands. Uh and that's sort of the main technical complexity we we try to um simplify for for utilities, but also of course for the end user. Uh in the end, of course, AI does help a lot, especially building all these integrations and edge cases, but we we still have a lot of engineers to get it done.

SPEAKER_00 8:11

And and I suppose your assets need you you need to be able to communicate with your assets so that you you do that through API, do you?

SPEAKER_03 8:17

And exactly. So there's to do it, one is via a gateway and one is via API. Now the the gateway um it's for us quite challenging um to install. We had a gateway previously, but we then discontinued it about two years ago, just because the the setup um where there's additional costs of buying the hardware, then you have to set it up. Um if something breaks, it's usually quite challenging to fix it without uh going to the home. And the API, of course, uh relies on the OEMs which um have already installed an app at the customer's house. So you might have your Tesla app or you have your you know Huawei app. And so there's already an existing working interface in the home. And then we can just tag along with the OEMs that it's much easier to do via API. One, it doesn't cost anything to set up, it's much quicker, just email and password to authenticate the login. And then, of course, you can rely on the OEM to actually improve the service over time, whereas at the gateway, it's all nuts. Um and we're also actively, in some cases, competing with what the OEM wants to do by themselves.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

I mean, back in the day, I mean I think it was quite hard for people to access the APIs of sort of certain heat pump manufacturers. I think heat pump manufacturers have realized it's actually now beneficial for them to actually work with people like yourself that sort of require that data. I mean, are there so you've had you've you've had a trial, didn't you, Zach? You started a trial back last year, I think in somewhere where 20 homes you've been tr trialing this with. Tell us about that. And also, do you use particular manufacturers for your your particular assets like your batteries and your solar and your heat pumps? Yeah, so you're right.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

We started last year with well, we started planning long before that. This whole thing started as part of a Desnes trial between um us and some other companies, and an opportunity became apparent that this could be a new product for Eon. Um, and there's very few energy as a service type products out there at the moment because it's so difficult to do, and there's different policies and uh challenges which make it largely impossible, and that's what definitely drew me to it and trying to do the impossible. So it's currently 18 homes being installed. Uh, well, they've been installed, sorry. The install started back in June, the last one finished on the 2nd of March. So we were really taking our time to make sure we actually got it right. And those installs, um, whilst they are live in market now, and those customers, real homes in and around Coventry and the Midlands, um are on their own customized fixed price, all asset, plus or minus the EV charger, um, being optimized by by Chris's company, Padero. We have we we have to be clear that it is a small-scale trial. So the goal of it is to test some very particular things. Uh, so it's not about is it commercially viable? Um, are we saving customers thousands of pounds? Um, that will come at a bigger scale. Right now, we're really trying to test. I think you could probably say it's um three things really. The first part we're trying to test with just the small 18 customer trial is do customers want it? Are customers willing to sign up to a fixed price tariff? Um, can we deliver it? Because if you can imagine, installing a heat pump is already complex and challenging, as you know, Nathan. Um, and things, small things can go wrong. But can we install all assets, all measures over a shortened period, maybe five days for all at once? That's a lot of techs and engineers on site. Um, and how can we do it by making the customer still feel comfortable so that they're willing to engage and uh carry on with the product? And the third thing is Chris, can we optimize those things together to ensure that we can maintain that fixed price, but also ensure that customers understand what's going on with that optimization because it's quite a new thing, even for a lot of customers who already have some of these measures involved. Now, whilst you could let me carry on forever now, Nathan, but whilst that trial is in place and whilst customers appear to like it, uh I mean, right now the the desirability measures that we're testing show that there's a a plus 56 MPS score. So yes, small scale 18 customers, but that's 11 promoters out of those, three passive and two detractors. And I'll be completely up front. The detractors have actually come from, for them, a challenging install. It's a BAU install. So it's not that they don't like energy as a service, they had a bad experience of the install itself. So then it's how do we win them back? How do we make sure that we gain their trust back again and demonstrate the benefit of uh of next gen home as a whole? And actually, the other interesting thing that we've learned from those 18 customers is that um in the monthly comfort pulse that we have with them, of the 12 that responded to last month's pulse, 11 out of 12 rated their home as comfortable, very comfortable. So, you know, if the goal is we provide you with a warm, comfortable home, and you don't need to think about anything, we make it simple for you to shift carbon, to make sure you're actually driving the right pricing, to make sure that your pricing itself is simple just for a warm, comfortable home. I think we've succeeded. But there's something else, Nathan, and that is that this is all retrofit as I mentioned in and around Coventry in the Midlands, linked to our partnership with the uh with Coventry City Council. We are also now testing a six home demo with social housing. So that the first install is happening in two weeks' time, um, and the goal of that is that the cost of the assets is being taken away and paid for elsewhere, and the social housing tenant will therefore get an optimized service commodity wrapper placed over the top, same deal, fixed price, customized to their previous energy usage. But of course, that then will be a low-bill home because the cost of the assets is stripped out of the deal.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yeah, I can see social housing going for this in a in a big way, but you know, once we're all there with uh doing the tweaks of of getting it to exactly what where we need to get it to, it'd be a good good benefit from for social housing. With with uh with with sort of customers at the moment that are in their homes and they've adopted this battery technology and solar and and let's say heat pumps as well. You know, some some of the real sort of geeky people I know are homeowners that have got this technology. What they're very interested in is how much uh you know how much electricity are they putting back to the grid and etc. etc. Now I suppose for your customers, they kind of won't be thinking like that because it's just it but that it's just going on in the background for them, is it? They're just getting that monthly bills, it takes all the pressure off of knowing what they're gonna be paying, they've just got that monthly thing that just that comes out. They probably aren't gonna be concerned as much about things like that, are they?

SPEAKER_02 15:19

I presume. But you should say that. Because we actually have uh some unexpected learnings here, because my assumption was that if we say to customers, good news, we can make comfort in your home easy, you just pay us a fixed price, which you see in advance, you're happy with, it's customized to you, and that's all you need to do. Just pay the pay the bill, and then your home is warm, you can see all of these things around you, they're doing their job. No. It turns out that customers need to understand what the system is doing, they need something visible, they won't just trust that we're doing the right thing by them. Um, and I guess why it matters is because automation without visibility, it sort of erodes confidence in what we're doing, even when performance is fine. And actually, there is a benefit to having something visible so that they can see that their energy retailer is doing something for them. Then we're not just sitting back and twiddling our thumbs, which leads on to Chris. Uh, because apart from during the the install process that we've had, we've redesigned the hems onboarding um and changed the way that we do that. But Chris has enabled us to have um a platform, which he can tell us about.

SPEAKER_03 16:31

Yeah, so I think the there's there's of course the the set of in the user interface that we provide. Um so you have uh an app in the app store, the iS, uh in the Android app store, in the address store, uh the Google store, and uh web. Um but actually there's been a couple of feature requests from Zach in the last months, which we've been very happy to add. So, of course, you know, it's it's important to be able to connect to the device easily. You you enter your email and password, and then and then you're done. You see the device in the app. You then see all the devices data. So we monitor the device and see show you what's going on. You can see the savings, um, which of course um is is nice to see that we're actually optimizing. But also, of course, you need to communicate when things you know don't go well. So you basically need to say, hey, uh, for example, today we weren't able to save you money because of reason X. Or even just to say, you know, today you charge your car um at work. Um at work we can't optimize um because it's a different electricity contract, different electricity bill. Um, so your car was charged, but uh, you know, we didn't have anything to do with it. Uh, and just to have the transparency of what's going on, um, often positive, often neutral, sometimes negative. Hey, for example, you know, you need to reconnect to the device for this or that reason. Uh, and to provide not only um the visibility, but also to have um an active communication of what's going on to reassure the user uh you know we're taking care of everything, we will know when things are happening, uh, and to basically provide sort of to be the friendly helper that is uh as access not twiddling their tubs uh uh in the office.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Do that do they get like a uh is it all done via phone app or do they get like a smart meter where they can see what's going on from that visual aspect, or is it is it all on their phone or computer?

SPEAKER_03 18:13

Yes, it's uh it's all on their phone and computer. Uh I think the the learning we have made um over the last years is that over 90% of users want to do this on their phone. Uh it mirrors the existing app interactions they have. Um, you know, when they sort of uh you know, say you have an EV charger, you want to, you know, change the charging limit, uh, please charge until 90%, another 80%. That's usually done uh via the phone. And so we basically want to tag along and tag onto this existing behavior and say, well, now you can not only do this in these interactions at every different part of your energy system in every different uh app that you have, but we can centralize a lot of those interactions in the same app that of course has the Ion brand with it, uh, so that we essentially um you know try to unify all these disparate energy actions that you do throughout the day and throughout the week. Um so that you have one place where you go to, you know what's going on, you know, everything's fine. You can change the most important settings, uh, and then it's only only click away.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

Are you guys, uh Zach, as a utility, are you guys kind of first to market with this sort of this sort of thing?

SPEAKER_02 19:20

I I would whenever I uh do any talks about next-gen home, uh I always slightly tongue-in-cheek say that this is the first of its kind in the UK. But of course, I caveat it with a lot of uh other things like this is the first of its kind, all assets, fully optimized, single fixed price, commodity included, energy as a service proposition. But the reality is that um other companies in the UK um have done energy as a service trials. Um Octopus did a great one. Uh Tomato, of course, uh had something similar. I don't think either of those, I might be wrong, I don't think either of those um optimized EV at the same time. Um we go direct to EV, and of course we have the charger. Um, there are other smaller companies who do great jobs, uh, and I can't call out all of them, but Wonderwall also is doing some fascinating things in this space, uh, including whole home automation and IoT-based devices, which I think is a fascinating direction. So there are others, but I think that we might be the first UK retailer to really try and drive forward an all-asset option. Um, and we will be doing bundled uh options as well, so different asset mixes. Probably the other thing to say is that part of the goal uh for Eon of making new energy work, or what we're calling making new energy work, is trying to put these low-carbon assets into the hands of as many homes as possible in a way which is simple and low cost for them. So this seems like a natural way to do it.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

I mean I mean the reason I asked is because I've had Wanderwall on actually, yeah, and and obviously I'm always talking about this sort of sector, and and I and I did think to myself, yeah, I think you are, you know, by by being able to offer everything what you are offering, I think you are first. I mean, and just to sort of mention, because there's a gonna be I mentioned to you earlier, Zach, there's gonna be a lot of my listeners thinking, oh, Nathan's got Eon on. Are they gonna talk about the Ovo thing? But uh Zach and I and Zach's team of people, we we arranged this podcast a few months ago, way before uh that news announcement. So we're obviously here to talk talk about what uh the next gen home. It is called the next gen home, isn't it? Zach, I've got that right, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 21:32

It is it is called next gen home, and I can just speak to Ovo very briefly, uh, only to say that uh right now it's still early days. The main thing that is in our mind is keeping things as stable and simple as possible for both Eon's customers and Ovo's customers. And there won't be any change for the time being, but I suspect in the future this will only be a good thing both for the energy energy industry and I think for things like proposition and innovation development generally, because Has some great products, um, as does Eon.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Now, I think one of the benefits, because I obviously talk to lots of people, well, sort of friends I knew from school that don't know what I've been doing for the last sort of 10 years, and I sort of chat to them about what I do, and then they tell me, Oh, yeah, I'm quite interested in in PV and I've heard about batteries and EVs, but of course, it then comes to the cost. They can't afford to put this in as much as they they're not I don't so they're desperate for they're definitely not desperate for it, but they're very interested in it. They're uh you know, now that their energy bills have gone up. So that whole fixed pricing is quite appealing for some people I know. Now, are you able to sort of give people well? I was gonna say, can you give an indication of what it would cost? But like you've just mentioned, it's bespoke to everyone's property and their previous energy usage, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 22:46

Yeah, and it's yeah, it it it is uh in the the small in the 18 home trial, customers are paying slightly more than they were last year, but I had to be frank, my goal is it it has to be, I think, as at best the same price that they were paying last year, and ideally less. People are focused rightly on trying to lower as much of their household um cash flow as they possibly can. And even though they're getting all of these assets included, they have to find a way, either through optimization or other measures, uh, to try and make sure that this is as as good a value as possible. There's a couple of other points on it as well. The first part is that in some ways for me, the goal of this is not just getting these assets into people's homes and optimizing them to or orchestrating them together to try and provide a good service. The goal really is in trying to change the way that customers view their energy usage. Um custom like customers don't lie in bed at night thinking about kilowatt hours. We might, perhaps, but customers generally don't think about lying in bed thinking about kilowatt hours or jewels or anything else. Uh, they think about okay, does my energy work? Do my assets work? Do I have a warm, comfortable home? If I do, then great. So, in some ways, the customer value proposition is what else can we do beyond just giving the assets, providing the energy at a single fixed price? So it might be anything else that's linked in the future towards comfortable homes. It might be discounts with home appliance companies or sustainable home appliance companies or something like that, which might lead to then a bigger proposition, which is Eon provides a warm, comfortable home. Not just warm, also comfortable, in whatever guise that might take. Now, this second part is as we're looking to scale up, two of the biggest challenges of scaling up are moving beyond the all asset installation that we've done for the trial to particular bundles for customers that work for their home. Um and Nathan, you might you've you're heavily experienced in heating, so you might of course shoot me down on this. But what we found so far is that um what 80% of the potential trial lists we analyzed raised concerns about the heat pump specifically around the size, the space required, noise levels, uh pipework disruption, um, any energy savings and guarantees of that. Um and also what we've experienced is that of course heat pumps, whilst great, and we are firm believers in heat pumps, they're not suitable for all homes. Just a lot of homes. So then how can I do energy as a service in flats? How can I do energy as a service in really tight, mid-terraced houses where I'd have to crane a heat pump over the top, which isn't always cost effective? So, of course, in the MVP, I'm looking at other measures as well. So that might be those smaller heat pumps. We don't need to name the brands, but the smaller heat pumps that you might be able to have single room and a single room, and they can talk together and I can optimize them. Um, or it might be some sort of infrared solution that we can't optimize, but it could be a low electricity um option to add into the heating as well, or it could be electric boilers for hot water. So we're looking at getting the right mix, which might be battery alone, battery and solar, battery solar heat pump, battery and heat pump, um, or the whole shebang with a bolt-on of EV charger as well. So the benefit of that is it will, I believe, um open up to a great big market sizing of 680,000 homes if we have the right mix for the right home at the right price.

SPEAKER_03 26:31

Yeah, and we're seeing now across Europe that um a lot of the um, you know, the things that maybe two or three years ago were considered impossible. I mean, you mentioned at the beginning, connectivity was not as impossible uh maybe three, four years back. And we're seeing now that the price of just standalone home batteries uh that are you can plug in, that you can plug into the socket, are getting uh to a price point where uh it makes sense to roll them out via engine as a service to a lot of customers, where traditionally wasn't the case. So if you if you look at a battery you bought maybe 10 years ago, the prices um reduced so dramatically that for the first time you can offer something for not the sort of relatively wealthy household consumer, but also for the vast majority of uh of people that don't live in a nice house where everything can be customized, modified, where it's not a problem if you change something in a roof. Um and I think that's the that's the power of energy as a service that I think is often overlooked, uh, especially with the with some utilities.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Chris and Nathan, you know, you know where this lives and dies. Uh if what I'm learning more and more is this lives and dies, not just on the nature of the proposition and the things we're installing, it lives and dies on the finance mechanism of dealing with that upfront cost of the assets and the install and how we then handle that cost in a way which is is great for the end user, the customer, uh, but also not onerous for the installer, not onerous for the manufacturer, not onerous for the energy retailer. Uh so we're working closely. And you asked earlier, Nathan, um, were we working with particular companies? Yes. We were very careful in choosing those companies that were great to work with, had good quality products that we could easily optimize with via API. So those are Valent, Solar Edge, MyEnergy, and of course Pedero.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

They used to sponsor me, My Energy. Um, yeah, uh there's another thing because obviously there's there's another where place where this could fall down. Um and and and every every utility is experiencing this. I know I did Ovo did during the electrification of heat because they contacted me about it. They were you know, they were obviously monitoring all their um heat pump systems going in under that scheme, and they weren't performing very well. And it's it's simply because there's a lot of the supply chain out there, uh, you know, they're not definitely not all cowboys at all, but they um they're what I call inconscious, um unconscious incompetence. They want to do good work, but they just don't know exactly what good work is yet. You know, they don't know what they don't know, which is why people contact me because I own obviously the guild of master heat engines, and and if you ever need help help from them in the future, let me know. But because a lot of people are having heat pump systems in put in by very you know well-meaning friendly SMEs or whoever they got to install it, and and I'm talking about some of the larger companies as well, won't name them, they're not being put in as optimally as possible, and that's not down to the fact that they is it it's a struggle or it's disruptive to put them in as optimally as possible, it's just that they uh you know the people that have put them in haven't kind of just known a f a few of the things. I mean, commissioning, for instance, it seems to be a big problem. Uh, and and obviously, as you in or deploy more assets, you know, you've got your batteries, your PV, and all this stuff, you kind of want it to be working all uh seamlessly all together, and you know, orchestrating a team of people to come into someone's home and put all that stuff in. Well, trust me, I know it's challenging. Um, and I imagine it's very challenging for you guys as a utility because you've got to try, you know you've got you you want the best supply chain possible. And you know, I do know them, there's there's obviously entities out there who are onboarding engineers and SMEs specifically to go to utilities to put stuff in. Um, you know, because they talk to me as well about how do we get good engineers. So the engineering community out there it is quite a heterogeneous community because we've been a sole trader uh self-employed uh industry since the early 80s. So that's that's um had issues with how do we get or how do we disseminate what best practices, what current best practices to this sort of disenfranchised heterogeneous industry. You know, way back in the 60s and 70s it was a direct employed labour force, and you could really, really disseminate what good practice was is very quickly. That's why we transitioned from town gas to methane very, very quickly in 10 years. But a lot of entities now are really struggling to get that good engineering background, and it's not that it's never down to qualifications or experience at all. So that that's that's always going to be a challenge for everyone. I mean, it's but it's not a challenge that can't be overcome at all.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

That's right. So I have an example. Uh for the for the 18 homes, we used our own um in-house installers at the time, and they did a great job, but it was a steep learning curve because even though uh, of course, there was you know a heavy design uh process beforehand, particularly for the heat pumps, but also then the system as a whole, um, there were still learnings to be had, and we learned pretty quickly. But one of the things we tried to um we tried to deal with was something pretty new for them, which was of course connecting the hems to the assets. And Padero kindly did a series of trainings for the installers, and um Valent and SolarEdge also then got the installers to come and refresh their existing training. So we tried to get them up to speed as quickly as possible. But things like trying to get I mean it seems like it might be straightforward, but it's not as straightforward as you might think. And it's a new process for installers to learn when we're trying to connect to a platform like Padero's, um, and then also try and engage the customer in that process as well. So we're almost educated, in fact, it's a massive system of education for making sure that people are aware of the waterfall process of what needs to be which type of asset type needs to be installed when during that five-day period, um, and then also at the end of it on Thursday or the Friday, how that then they then need to support the customer in connecting to Padero. Uh so the customer is being educated as well as the the techs and engineers beforehand as well.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Yeah, definitely a definitely a big uh learning sort of care for everyone, isn't it?

unknown 32:51

Chris.

SPEAKER_03 32:53

We're lucky to have the same brands over and over again. Um so that there's sort of the we what we see in the field, you know, when we work with you know with propositions where it's it's not so standardized. Um, you see the the craziest settings on especially heat pumps um for inverters and bad and DVs it's usually not that bad. But there's some heat pumps where you will constantly have the heating rod running, right? And the cost, of course, then it's astronomical. So the first thing that we can do um remotely is just to make sure we don't we use the system in a more efficient way. That's not even price optimization. Now, in the case with with your next, it's it's better because you have an installer uh on site, uh you checks these things. Um, but sometimes it's uh it's uh it's the Wild West out there, even in countries where you believe heat pumps are super established, like Sweden, where half the population heats with heat pumps.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

Oh, that's that's super established air, Chris. We were putting them in before any other European country. I don't think people realise we have the biggest air-to-wear commercial heat pump market in Europe, and we have done for decades. They've been gowning for well, my family we've been putting in for nearly half a century. Uh, I just don't think people realise their heat pumps when they look up and they think, oh, it's an air conditioner, they don't realise it heats you as well. Um they've been gowning for donkeys years, uh, way before Sweden. But um well, let's talk about other countries because Chris, your your company, I suppose. I mean, is it Austrian? Have I got that right?

SPEAKER_03 34:11

Yeah, exactly. We're uh uh officially Austrian, uh, we're we're active in 10 European countries. Right, okay. Also, the team is from from most European countries. Um so we you know we were we're well distributed across the the epex, the north pole price zones, so where you can trade on on those markets.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

And so you so you're doing this in other European countries. Are you doing it exactly kind of the same, or is it a bit different in different countries what you're doing?

SPEAKER_03 34:34

So of course, the uh you know, next proposition is unique um in that is energy as a service. Um a lot of the time we do sort of the um, you know, either we do a um you have a fixed tariff and there's a fixed price reduction. So say, you know, you have um connect your battery inverter and you save 120 pounds a year. That's sort of a you know fixed tariff, uh fixed uh cost savings. Um we also, of course, sometimes do these uh you know dynamic tariff optimizations where you connect your asset, you might have a dynamic, uh, an hourly um electricity contract, uh, and then you basically steer the device optimally to save money there. Um so that is from you know Portugal to Italy, all the way to Estonia and Sweden, with everything in the middle. Uh so we see all types of climates um and all types of uh configurations um that you could imagine. Uh we're we're lucky that the European uh energy market is so standardized. So you know, electricity trading works roughly the same um in uh you know in Sweden as it does in Portugal. Uh and so from that, you know, we can benefit a lot. Of course, the OEMs, uh, the manufacturers are also a little bit different. Um, but of course the big ones are somewhat similar. So you'll find solar edge uh or valent across Europe as well.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

I think another great advantage I think you guys have got. So obviously, let's say um, you know, I I obviously can put heat pumps in, but I don't really know a lot about batteries, I don't really know a lot about solar, I definitely don't know a lot about um EV. Now, for a customer that kind of likes all these different assets, having one company install them and be in charge of them, because obviously over that this period you're gonna be the ones maintaining them as well. So let's say anything went wrong, they only have to ring up one company. Whereas there's gonna be a few customers out there, you know, they might have had a company come in and put their solar, and then another company might have come in and put their battery in, another company might have come in and put their heat pump. Let's say something goes wrong, it's a bit of a nightmare for them to sometimes sort out. Whereas if one entity has done the whole lot and it's your energy supply, which I suppose helps it, because you're they're the ones you pay the bill to. Um, it makes it a little bit, it's it's it's more of a stress-free thing. You know, it's something I'd probably do, you know, because like I say, I don't know anything about batteries, I should do. I I should learn more about them, but you know, heating is my game. Uh, I can do that myself if I wanted to, but all the other things I'd I know good people to do it, obviously. But I think that would be quite an important proposition for many consumers, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Well, I'm glad that you're the first customer for the uh for the MVP, Nathan. That's great. Uh you're you're right that there is a there is um there's something kind of pleasing about about the all-in-one. Uh there's something kind of pleasing about the simplicity of coming to one person that you know you'll learn the name of who will then coordinate everything for you and give you that I'm sorry to keep repeating the same phrase, but that warm, comfortable home by installing whatever asset bundle is right for you. But having said that, in the future, as more and more companies launch products like this, there will, of course, come a time where there'll be a secondary market where a retailer will provide just a commodity a still fixed rate commodity and service tariff, um, which is somehow separate separated from the finance deal on the assets. So customers will come and go between different companies, um, and then we'll just provide the commodity and service wrapper over the top. Now, that might mean then that we're recruiting customers who have existing assets or a part suite of existing assets, um, and we'll need to optimize with those customers as well. Um, so it they'll become a more complex marketplace where whilst it might be great for one person to install everything in time, I think it will end up being a bit like Hi-Fi's. I was listening to a podcast about Hi-Fi's um, how they developed over the years, and those at the top end like to get one um one module from Name, one from another company, one from Lynn, and they build their bundle as they see fit. Now, whilst right now people might be able to build a bundle with us in the MVP, the next stage, uh, in the future it'll happen naturally through market movements.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

Well, I can tell you you know your hi-fi Zach, because you mentioned Lynn. That's my favourite record deck, the Lynn Son deck. Perfect. Well, um, yes, so I was gonna say, so if if if someone has this and then they decide to move home, what sort of happens in that scenario? So let's say they they've they've had all this installed and they they move home two years down the road. So what's what's the process there?

SPEAKER_02 39:01

It's a great question, and of course we've done quite a lot of research into it, and of the people we've researched and also the research we've found. I'm afraid it's a win-win situation for different parties. The first one is the um the homeowner that's selling their house. Uh the research that we've done is uh shows that depending on the scale of where they are across the period of their next gen home, if it's a 10-year journey, 10-year journey, uh, but the value of the assets do increase the value of the home, particularly if they can demonstrate a stable and good value bill behind it to the incoming buyer. For the incoming buyer, it means uh the the asset cost is paid off in the sale of the house. So they come in, they have no asset pay down. So we just provide a commodity and service wrapper over the top, which is optimized. So therefore, it's a low-bill home for them. So the the buyer comes into a low-bill home, the seller doesn't lose money on the house sale by selling the assets with it. And they and in the terms and conditions, they can they can, of course, leave whenever they want. We're not gonna restrict them by saying you have to stay in your house for 10 years.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

I had Ryan, Ryan on from the Green Finance Institute uh last week, and we were both, you know, like in the future, homes that have got this kind of technology are gonna be able to command more of a premium price, I I imagine, aren't they? As as as we sort of move towards the transition. Yeah, I hope so. And obviously, with your package, you've got um maintenance, I should imagine. That I mean, that's another thing, I suppose. It's takes the onus off the the homeowner thinking, right, well, who who do I get to do my yearly service on the heat? I mean, because not every installation outfit out there is doing so. I don't understand why, but they're not. Whereas obviously you guys are gonna do your own maintenance packages, aren't you? And and I presume you're monitoring the systems as well, aren't you? For so you can preempt situations if you think there's a situation coming up.

SPEAKER_03 40:53

Yeah, for sure. So I um, you know, next to the interfaces for end users, um, so for the consumers, we have an interface for Zach and his colleagues. So they can, you know, look at the telemetry data, so they can look at the monitoring data, uh, see what's going on for the heat pump, for example. You can see the temperatures, you can see the operational modes. Um, there's you know about 50 parameters that would be available as well if you need them. Um in some cases, the installer has a separate platform by the OEM. Um, that's something we see in a lot of other countries, where then uh Valent provides an OEM platform itself. But of course, the consumer will often call the utility first and say, hey, I see this happening in my house. Um I using this too, what should I do? And so it's important for the uh for the custom service and customer support uh people at Eon to see what's going on in real time and then say, well, that's something we can fix. We can you know change this parameter, we can you know contact installer for you, um, we can ask Padere what's going on in case we, you know, in case we can we can fix it. Um and it's nice to have one place where we fuse all that data together uh in the customer support tooling.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

And in terms of the uh in terms of the servicing itself, yes, in the 18-person trial, there's a yearly heat pump service, which is part of that fixed price. In the 300 plus MVP that we're building now, I think there's something more we can do linked to the visibility that I mentioned earlier customers definitely want. And that's yes, heat pump service, but also why not quarterly updates on things like battery health or other asset health, uh, or how things are being optimized and be more proactive in sharing with customers how their assets are assets are performing.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

What what is the what's the if I was to ask you, what's the biggest learning you've had so far from your 18 people trying to 18 home drawing? Yeah, that specifically shocked you or surprised you that you probably weren't thinking about it.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

There's there's there's two sides. There's one which is uh I I guess a customer learning, and and it's not that technical, and that is that people appear to love it. I mean it's quite a big change in the way that people use energy in their homes, it's quite a big change in the way that people uh pay for their energy. Um it's maybe a little bit of a mindset shift, uh mindset shift. God, I can't get my tongue around that word today. Um, but the the second learning is more of a personal one, and that is it is significantly more complicated than even I anticipated. Um and I I know the listeners can't see me, but you can, Nathan. And if you look at my face, I'm only 21 years old. But surely the best things to go after are difficult.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

Well, it will be complex, it will be complex to start with, and then you as over time, you know, as time goes on, you're gonna let learn, and you'll and you'll the learn in generally engender things like oh, yeah, yeah, but that seems quite simple now, now that we know. Yeah. Uh we we were talking about different um property types, and can you get you know your assets into these different property types, specifically heat pumps? Are you are Obviously, most our country tends to always, when it talks about heat pumps, air to water, despite the fact we like to say we've got the biggest air to air commercial market in Europe. Um would you consider things like ground loops? So where you you know people as you as you will know, you've probably talked to them. There's companies out there that can do boreholes and then provide heat to some houses in a row, for instance. Is that something you'd you'd consider?

SPEAKER_02 44:27

In the future, yes. Uh for residential homes in the short term, it's not part of our suite of products we're looking at, but we are looking at social housing sector, it would probably work better, wouldn't it? Yeah, I think probably yes. Um and of course, we do have within the business heat networks that we might be able to build something with. Uh, we do have um other heating options generally, but for the retrofit resie area, um, I think the general direction is heat pumps and or other low carbon heat that we mentioned before, like the um smaller heat pumps with no external unit or go out there infrared matting or something like that. So I'm I I will consider a range of things. Um and ground loops are something I will reconsider. Um but it's not part of my current roadmap.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

And and things like air to air. I mean, there was some social housing near to where I was living, and the they they they put external wall insulation on on a lot on a sort of all these rows of houses, which would have cost an absolute fortune. They only had one kitchen, one living room, and one bedroom. Now I could heat that whole property with one mini split, one four kilowatt mini split. It cost 400 quid. That's it. And but look like again, people just didn't really. I mean, people are starting to learn about air to air now, and I know I talked to Desnes about it, and people like Nesta. Um, but yeah, just they they spent thousands and thousands of thousands. The work wouldn't have been done very well pro good anyway, as we're all now learning. A lot of this external wall insulation goes on willy-nilly and causes more problems than it's actually trying to to alleviate. But yeah, I mean, air to air would would work quite seriously as well. And of course, obviously, we've got people wishing they would have air to air at the moment because you know, for them five days of heat that we we all hate overheating, it's gonna pull that heat out, and that could all be run on batteries and solar, yeah, and your car battery.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Um Nathan, it sounds like you and I are gonna have to talk offline about um lots of options as well.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

We should do, and uh I I can definitely help with your supply chain. Um, even if I have some of my guild engineers go out and just just look at what's been done and then just because they've done that with Bristol City Council. So Bristol City Council had a hundred MCS installs audited by MCS, and then one of my guild engineers went out and and told them what actually needed to be done and rectified. Um because it's the the problem in our industry, and understandably, when everyone came into all this, like when new utilities all came into it, it was understandable that everyone thought, right, if you're qualified and accredited, you know what you're doing, and that was far, far from the case, which is why all the heat pump trials, you go back to the energy savings trust heat pump trials 2009-2011 and the electrification heat trials, you know, the average uh seasonal performance of those assets wasn't great, and you know, like I say, it wasn't because cowboys were putting them in, it's people just didn't really know what they kind of could know, and it doesn't take a lot to get them to know it either. But but uh yeah, people have now started to realise that that's a bit of a challenge. Getting getting a real good skilled supply chain is one of the big challenges. I mean, obviously, Chris, you've got your challenges because that's all coding and geeky stuff and technology, which I understand nothing about, but all sounds quite exciting. What um are you allowed to work with other energy companies, or is it just uh you're just exclusive working with Ion?

SPEAKER_03 47:55

Or yeah, well, great question. I guess we we work at Ion in a number of countries. Uh we're allowed to work with other companies, of course. Um, Zach being our preferred customer um over all others. Um uh yeah, but uh the you know there's always sort of first startups the the question of exclusivity. But uh I think the the important thing that we achieved with Next Energy Home, but also of course uh with some other customers in other countries, is to be first in the market to have the the you know the widest possible range of compatible options. If you know, even if it is, well, you know, um Zach will decide, well, we'll install this this OEM for heat pumps and this for inverters, it's great to have 10 other options available, um, just so we can offer the broadest possible range of solutions to then offer a standardized product. Um, so that you know, instead of um, you know, we're trying to always find solutions for utilities that are sort of mass market already and not sort of bespoke, you know, it will work for two homes, but to really use you know trials like this as well to figure out what you can scale to, as Zach mentioned before, 700,000 homes.

SPEAKER_00 48:54

How did you get into the industry, Chris? We I mean I presume you you you're a coder, I presume, aren't you? You're you're one of the computer experts. So I mean, how did you sort of venture into the energy sector?

SPEAKER_03 49:05

Yeah, yeah. Uh well, I studied physics uh and then I learned in the code uh at university, uh, and you know, just doing side projects. Uh, and then I founded a company in the supply chain space, basically also analyzing data and making decisions. Uh, and then, you know, like all of us, we were at some point we were hooked in energy, um, trying to figure out how we could use more low carbon energy, sort of in a in a profitable way, because I believe that it's sort of the the thing that really drew me to the field was that he could he could build a solution that would be sort of cheaper costs, but also lower CO2 emissions. And I believe if you don't have, you know, if you don't uh win on the cheaper cost side as well, then it won't be adopted by the whole world. It will maybe a few people who want to do something good, but uh it needs to be adopted globally and worldwider than by the majority of the population. And so that's what got me me hooked in energy. Um I don't code anymore, sadly enough. Uh I mostly do talking now. Um, but uh uh now and then I I get to I get to interact with the product. Um I'm I'm testing it myself, of course, every day. Um so that's uh that's the the most fun I get to have. Um yeah, next to those podcasts, of course.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Are you guys um at any of the shows? Are you have you been at any of the shows this year, Zach? Or are you gonna be at the any of the shows, the events that are in the energy space?

SPEAKER_02 50:19

Oh, for my part, uh we don't exhibit at many of them. We exhibit it at Innovation Zero, uh, but I generally turn up and do panels and talks at Utility Week, Future of Utilities, and uh various other well-known I I also often just turning up and talking to as many people as possible at Solar and Storage, Future Build, um, and and various other UK conferences as well.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Now the the batteries, what was what was the brand of batteries you guys use? Solar Edge. Solar Edge. Now, obviously, again, I don't know anything about batteries. We've had a particular manufacturer don't exist now, do they? Which I suppose is may have put some customers off battery technology in their homes. If that happens to them with a particular brand, I mean I suppose again your solution mitigates that because you're a utility company. People, you know, if it did go bust a particular battery company you're using, you're you're scaled up to sort of deal with that, aren't you?

SPEAKER_02 51:15

Uh that's true. Uh and as Chris said, there's the the monitoring that we can do throughout as well. But having said that, before we engage with any supplier, particularly batteries, we go through regardless of the testing that manufacturers had already, we have our own lab where we go through extensive and lengthy testing of those units as well. Uh and that's from multiple angles. That's from the performance um and uh other measures of the battery, but also then how, for example, the API works with Padero. So that goes through extensive testing in the lab as well, which we did with Solar Edge.

unknown 51:47

Christian.

SPEAKER_03 51:48

Yeah, the lucky thing is oh, sorry. Uh no, the lucky thing is working with uh, you know, like huge companies like Eon is that they have significant ability to sway um those OEMs. So we actually um signed a couple of contracts through the introductions of Zach Miss team because it uh it is a lot easier to talk to Solar Edge if you're coming with Eon than if you're coming along. Um so that usually helps. And then of course we put through all the testing. Uh it's also nice that we have test devices, but it's really hard to test things on a theoretical level um without actually measuring the response, without measuring the data. Um, so that is that is, you know, we we have to do this from all physical angles, but also from all sort of software digital uh angles.

SPEAKER_00 52:26

I mean, I imagine the German RD team at Vale are quite enthusiastic because RD engineers are really very enthusiastic people. I mean, once you get up to the sort of the senior leadership senior, which are sales and marketing, you unfortunately, it's not there for I suppose, they don't tend to understand too much about their own technology. Whereas the RD engineers really, really do. And I don't do, I mean, do you work quite closely with them or is it just a case you get the API and away you go?

SPEAKER_03 52:52

Well, the the interesting thing is the the supplier has sort of different incentives than than maybe Zach and I, uh, in that they want to sell the most amount of devices, right? And sort of um Zach wants to sell energy, the kilowatt hours, and I want to sell software traditionally, right? But now with the sort of next energy home, we have a solution where we fulfill sort of all our three needs in a perfect way to offer something that's that's better to customers than a standard product, where the the supplier gets to sell a device. Uh, they also get to ensure that the the usage of the device is is better than normal over the duration of the of the term. Um and for that reason, it's it's quite easy to work together with them, right? If you if you're not, if you if you if you can sort of show that you'll increase their sales numbers, then you may be in a situation where the supplier will ask, well, well, why should I do it? Is this really good for me? Will I not get more customer um support tickets? Um but more and more now the OEMs have realized that if they don't offer any you know interface for optimization that they'll be left behind by by the vast majority of suppliers who don't do it. So we we're seeing this shift in sentiment over the last two, three years uh to where now it's quite easy. But I guess the the beginning um was was quite challenging.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

Yeah, I imagine. And just speaking about RD generally, one of the things that I do speak to both Valent and Solar Edge particularly about is how we can you know, we're we're not all trying, we're all facing in the same direction. Not just I mean all of us um in the energy space, we're all generally facing the same direction. We want the same sort of things. And one of the things I'm keen to do with particularly Valent and Solar Edge, but all manufacturers as well, is to share maybe in general terms, but share where our product roadmaps are going, just in case there are synergies or things we should be working on together, or for in this specific case, something which might unlock a better feature of NextGen Home next year that would be good for our customers. So the closer we can work with all those organizations and their RD teams, the better.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

Is there anything, Chris? You'd like to is there anything you'd like a heat pump to be able to do that it can't do yet? Talking from a phone.

SPEAKER_03 54:59

Thank you, Nathan, for asking. Um now I have my wish list that I prepared together sacked before the call. Uh no, uh the uh uh I guess the or in order to so there's there's two ways to control an asset like a heat pump, right? You can easily say I'll control it by best efficiency. And that's very reasonable if you pay the same amount of um you know pounds per kilowatt hour or pence per kilowatt hour um throughout the day. But that's of course not the reality of the today's energy system. Today you pay a vast difference uh in you know uh at noon versus at maybe eight, eight, nine at night. And so the the best efficiency model of running a heat pump is no longer is sort of outdated, right? Because you need to optimize for the lowest cost curve. Um and that's sort of the the service that we provide together with with Ion. Now, the the tricky thing is that the the heat pumps parameters are still geared towards um you know efficiency. You see, so you see a lot of information about temperatures, about operating modes, whereas we care about what is the specific energy quantity that you can add to the system at which time, and when, you know, when do you have sort of an excess in energy that is already delivered, or you have uh a deficit which you have to catch up to. And so if there's one thing we'd like to see from OEMs, is that we could um have more uh granular information of how much heat a building needs at what time and how much heat it can defer to maybe two hours later. Because that is the that is the basis on which we optimize and which we trade, on which we then generate the savings uh for the end users and make the proposition work. Uh and so moving towards uh from efficiency to sort of keeping that uh you know that cost curve and the energy required um to to hit that cost curve in mind. It's a very technical request, uh, but it makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

Well, I'm sure they'll accommodate you. Have have you guys chatted to Mick Wall? So Mick Wall uh has been a guest on my podcast a few times, he's got his own podcast now, and he's he's a consumer, but he's he is a he's a geek, he's a computer type, he works at the Sheffield University doing their IT systems, and he's got a valence system, he writes brilliant blog posts about it. He's got battery and solar as well. He came up with this uh sort of sound bite, um, the Holy Trinity, where the heat pump and solar and the battery all work together. But he he's he's got incredible data on his systems. It'd be good for you to chat to Chris and Zach. And uh he he runs um he's gonna kill me for not remembering he he does something where he he he analyses octopus' data, you know, time of tariff use and stuff like that. He he's quite well known now in in the sector, and he's a he's a lovely, lovely gentleman. But he he's got so much information around the particular units you're using and how they are working with batteries and and and so like he'd he'd be a good person to well you could go on his podcast as well. He's a lovely he's he's just started his own one. He he manages to get his on YouTube as well. He's he's more technically adept than me. I'll just stick to heating. Well, gentlemen, it's been great having you on. It sounds like uh an exciting little project uh you're involved in, Zach. I'm sure you're enjoying it. Um and then you're you you've got your eight your 18 people trial, home trial obviously continues. And and when are you gonna hope to sort of scale up to your 300 one? Is that next year or later this year?

SPEAKER_02 58:12

Oh I uh maybe toward maybe towards the very end of this year. Yeah. Uh but we've got to think about the optional time to install as well. Yeah. Um, so and you know, Christmas time is not the best time. So um probably not before December, but um the general gist is as soon as I can.

SPEAKER_00 58:30

And and and I suppose what you've got you've got loads of customers, aren't you? I suppose what you you put out a little calling and and ask who's interested, don't you? And then you you can choose on different archetypes of homes, because obviously you want to you want your tests to be able to sort of test all sorts of things, don't you?

SPEAKER_02 58:46

Exactly that. We want to be very targeted in the the types of customers that we go through, so we will put out a proactive uh call, not just to our own customers, uh, but generally as well. Um, and whilst I've said it's 300 plus, um it'll be the right number of customers to give us a representative sample of people who some people are keen, some people who are less keen, and also uh it might be more than 300, who knows? Uh, but all that planning is going on right now.

SPEAKER_00 59:10

Brilliant. Well, it's been great having you on, uh gentlemen. I hope you're gonna go away and enjoy this glorious weather we've got, but don't get burnt. Thank you for coming on, Chris, and thank you coming for coming on, Zach. Thank you. It's been great. Thank you.

unknown 59:23

Thank you.