The Phantom Efficiency: Exposing the Engineering Failure of UK Heating Controls

Overview

In this episode, we move beyond the industry’s obsession with nominal appliance ratings to confront a uncomfortable truth: "The Phantom Efficiency." We sit down with Robert Whitney to discuss why the UK heating sector is currently failing its first major test in the transition to electrification. We explore why we continue to chase theoretical efficiency gains on a spec sheet while ignoring the systemic failure of control strategies in the real world. This is a deep dive into the engineering reality of why our heating systems remain stuck in a high-temperature, on-off cycle, and why "effective control" is the missing link between a building’s design and its actual performance.

Critical Discussion Topics

The Myth of Nominal Efficiency: Why the sector prioritises the "sticker" efficiency of an appliance over the reality of how it operates within an integrated system.

The "Lobotomised" Boiler: A technical deconstruction of why high-precision modulating boilers are being throttled by outdated switch-live logic, effectively stripping them of the very intelligence we paid for.

Transition or Stagnation? Why the shift to heat pumps is exposing the industry’s deeper reliance on "rule of thumb" design. We discuss why the lack of systemic control knowledge is one of the greatest barriers to decarbonisation.

The Path to Mastery:Why "lifelong learning" and peer-to-peer knowledge sharing—as championed by the BetaTeach ethos—are the only ways to move from phantom efficiency to verifiable performance.

Key Technical Takeaways

Beyond the Appliance: Moving the industry narrative from "the boiler is efficient" to "the heating system is optimised."

The Physics of Delta T: Robert clarifies why low-temperature flow are not just "nice to haves" but fundamental requirements for both condensing boilers and heat pumps.

Data as the Antidote: How community-driven data initiatives (like OpenEnergyMonitor) are providing the hard evidence needed to challenge institutional inertia.

About Our Guest
Robert Whitney is an independent consultant and former technical leader in the global controls manufacturing sector. With a unique background spanning legacy controls and modern startups, he brings a "no-punches-pulled" perspective on the engineering realities of our current transition.

Resources

Read the latest newsletter: The Phantom Efficiency: Why Boiler Control Strategy Has Become the First Real Test



Our thanks to the guild patrons for their continued support: CastRads, Primary Pro, UK Radiators, Payaca, Esby, and Woolsey's Renewables Centre.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

So, welcome to another episode of Baby Talk. Today, I'm joined by my good friend Robert Whitney. And Robert, I hope you don't mind. I'm going to give you a bit of an introduction. I hope it doesn't embarrass you. Firstly, I'd like to thank my guild patrons who support my podcast, and they are Cast Rads, Primary Pro, UK Radiators, Payaka, Esby, and Woolsey's Renewables Centre. So Robert's on the on the podcast with me today. Now, Robert and I have known each other for a good few years, and we've we've had a meal together and some drinks together. He's an absolute wonderful gentleman. Now, when I first got onto social media, I used to give poor old Robert a bit of grief. I'm always polite, I think, to people. I hope I am on social media, but I I will stand fast on some of the issues I think need talk about. And poor old Robert took the brunt of me going on and on and on about controls because at the time he was working for one of the world's most famous controls manufacturer. And uh, but he was always, always extremely polite, always uh interactive with me. He didn't block me like a lot of people do. So it's a great pleasure to have him on the show. He's he's recently been uh he's he's worked at sort of two startups recently. We might talk talk about that, but he's now independent and and doing some sort of work uh for his own, so he can sort of kind of say whatever he wants to say now. Can't you wrong? So welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Yeah, thanks Nathan and thanks for the introduction at Spot On. Um, as you say, um had a had a number of years in the industry um at the uh biggest controls manufacturer in the world ever. Um and then most recently um took some time into the the world of tech startups um with uh some innovation companies. So um that came uh came to an end a couple of months ago and and yeah, now I'm I'm running solo. So the shackles are off, Nathan. Um I can be I can be unguarded now and uh say say all those things that um we've been saying to each other uh off the record for for many years.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

So I've just I've just published a newsletter literally about a few minutes ago about this control problem we have in the heating sector. And one of the things I find interesting about the heating industry, and I've grown up in it, is it's central heating. You know, central heating became popular in residential properties or post-war, and it's central heating. But then we had something quite interesting happen, so boilers, gas boilers became very, very dominant. They never used to be when I first started plumbing, or they were just about they were coming into it. So back in the early 80s, you know, people like Bosch were probably selling more oil boilers than they were gas boilers, very early 80s, and but what happened was we kind of then engendered this boiler industry, and and the the word central heating kind of got attenuated. And you know, as I've always said to people, heating is a system, it's not so much about the individual appliances, it's they've all got to work together. And we've had these modern boilers, you know, for the last 20 well three decades really, that have got electronic uh modulating gas valves on them, and we just aren't controlling properly. We're completely bypassing all that engineering that's gone into these good condensing boilers, and we're controlling them just as an on-off appliance, which is causing a lot of problems. And of course, you come from that controls industry, you've seen this for I mean, you think you brought the first open therm product to the market, didn't you? Have I got that right?

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Yeah, absolutely. So, as you say, COMBIS came in, I think it was 2000-2007, um, was the you know mandated date for condensing um COMBIS and condensing boilers. And yeah, in Europe where uh modulation controls you know are standard, um you know, those types of boilers were paired with intelligent controls, so whether or low compensation controls. Um unfortunately, when the condensing boilers were mandated in the UK, the uh the controls that should be used with them were not also mandated. So there was a shift for fitting these boilers that had the potential to recover a certain percentage of of energy from the from the waste heat, from the exhaust. Um, and that was never really um never really applied. Um so yeah, we ended up with a system where um the condensing boilers that should have been run at lower flow temperatures um and a wider delta T to assure condensing. Um that was never actually done. Um, and we carried on our high temperature on off um practices from from the uh previous type of boilers. So yeah, there was a missed opportunity way back when um that was attempted to be addressed in the Boiler Plus regulations change, which I think was was uh 2018. Um but there was uh there was also some disconnect at that point. So yeah, there's years and years of missed opportunity, and as you say, the the industry went from a heating engineering industry where the old school boilers, which were um only capable of about 10 kilowatts, um the in the installers had to do heat loss calculations and and radiator calculations to make sure that that meager amount of heat was distributed carefully uh around the home. Um and uh those old systems were were also hot water priority. So it's actually really interesting when you look at the last couple of decades from the technology that's that's out there and state of the art, it's actually gone completely full circle. So the type of controls and the type of system design that was done for a gravity hot water system is actually really applicable to a heat pump system.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Yeah, yeah, because obviously Honeywell were involved in all that, the um all your Y plans and S plans and W plans, weren't they?

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Yeah, 100%. And you know, those uh those components for those, you know, legacy on-off systems um still dominate the market.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Um so why do you think why do you think our country specifically was you know, we we introduced these uh low water content, low mass, ball hung boilers, uh that then became condensing. Why did we as a country get the control strategy wrong, whereas other European countries got it right? Now I've got my thoughts on this, but I mean I'd be interested to hear what yours are.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yeah, so you know, I'm rewinding my memory back you know almost 20 years to to look at this, and that there was certainly market forces at play. Um they the industry in the UK was very much um split into demarcations, and the the manufacturers of the boilers were were one part, the controls manufacturers were another part, and I can honestly say there was not really a lot of systems thinking uh in place at that at that time. Um fast forward to um the late 2010s, there was a lot more focus on systems engineering. Um and I had some time working with some of the manufacturers' groups on that because it was realized that you know as there's an increased focus on efficiency and moving towards electrified heating, the the old kind of lazy rules of thumb were no longer gonna cut it, and that systems had to be looked at holistically, and I think actually the real driver for all of this was low temperature heating design, and that came in through part L, you know, new systems and retrofitted systems um at 55 degrees C, that was really the catalyst for getting everyone thinking um about uh not only efficiency but also hot water priority. Um and inadvertently that you know the launch of that course and that requirement in part L has really been the thing that's shaken shaken the industry at. Um because as as we all know, you know, to get a heat pump running efficiently, you have to run it as cool as possible. And that means, you know, uh weather compensation curve, probably something like 45 degrees C design uh uh design XO temperature, um going down to you know perhaps 25 when it's sort of uh summer springtime weather. That then then causes a problem for the controls because you want to be running your space heating at a lower flow temperature, but when you want to do the stored up water, the heat source has to ramp right up you know to 65, maybe 70, 75 degrees C. So that was the real trigger for hot water priority systems, and obviously COMBIs are by nature hot water priority, but the S and Y plans absolutely not, they're they are not hot water priority systems. Um you've got to go back to the old school and uh the W plan system, which was actually a hot water priority system.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

I'm thinking I might have to explain this to some of my listeners what that that actually means. So it's a combi boiler, the combination boiler, when that sort of became popular uh all M years ago, um, is it is an instantaneous hot water system, so it has a very, very large burner, you know, th 24 to 48 kilowatts type thing. I think boss do a 50 kilowatt one there. Needs a real bit uh a lot of power to heat that water instantaneously as you as it flows to your tap. So when you turn a hot tap on, your boiler prioritises heating the water up for your hot tap. And if your heating's on, it sort of forget about that, the space heating for a minute and prior to prioritize the the hot water, the domestic hot water. Now, in homes that had what we call conventional boilers where you've got hot water cylinder, um, you can send the water around the coil in a cylinder, or you can send it around your space heating. With a Y plan, you can send it around both at the same time. So we used to have these things called mid-position valves. Um, an S plane kind of does the same thing, but it's got it's utilising two valves that open. And but what Robert's talking about is way before, you know, when I kind of first started actually, we had sort of W plans where it prioritised the hot water. So you would heat your hot water up first and and then go and do your space uh space heating. And you know, a lot of the good engineers out there recognise that with these particular boiler systems you still should be prioritising hot water because your hot water needs different temperature coming from the boiler than your space heating. Your space heating ideally needs different temperatures at different times of the day and at different days during winter because you know if you you've got an 8 kilowatt heat loss home, you know, when it's minus three, your home's only going to lose 4 kilowatts when it's 9 degrees outside, and 2 kilowatts when it's 15 degrees outside, and we can push heat into the home at the correct speed by reducing or increasing temperatures. And the modern gas board has been able to do that for a long time. It's got an electronically controlled gas valve that can do all sorts of things. No different to your gas cooker. You know, you want it to simmer, you turn the flame down, if you want it to boil, you turn the flame up, and you boarders' gas valves have been able to do this for a long time. But we're not controlling them like that, we're controlling them just to come on and off. Now, Robert, do you think one of the problems is, because I always say that the UK market is the most uh competitive market in Europe. Basically, if you make a heating product or component or part of any sort, raiders, circulation pumps, DRVs, controls, magnetic filters, if you make them, you want to sell in the UK. Everyone seems to be wanting to sell in the UK. So we've got a lot of third-party controls manufacturers. Now, obviously, Honeywell are a third-party controls manufacturer. And because I think in Europe, you know, if you put a particular boiler in in Europe, you will use that boiler's own controls. The controls have got the right um communication protocol to work with the boiler, to tell the boiler what to do, when it wants it to do it. But in this country, we have kind of got a history of using third-party controls. I used to use them, my dad used to use them, you know. Honeywell was the main one we went to. I mean, obviously, we were all boilers, so you know, oil boilers, we could learn a lot from the oil boiler industry because you haven't been able to modulate all boilers. You can now, my granddad's old company, EOGB, have have invented a fully modulated burner, but historically we couldn't, it was basically in and off device. Whereas gas boilers you can really, really control quite effectively. So, do you think that was a bit of a problem that we've got this mass market of third-party control manufacturers?

SPEAKER_01 13:54

I don't think it matters that it's a third party. I think what matters is the is how the system works together and and how it's been configured. And there's many, many different ways of setting up a control system. Um my original training, my apprenticeship was was back at a steam engineering company. Um, and I started off my career as a controls engineer. So I've I've kind of had an insight into all these different areas throughout my career. And yeah, when I joined the the UK market um 20 years ago, I I did find it odd that there was everything was on off rather than than modulation controls uh or proportional controls as I as I used to know them. Um but yeah, there's there's a few different ways of of doing this. Um obviously your optimal is your um weather compensation or low compensation type control where on a specific day or time of day it tells the boiler what flow temperature to produce, and that will vary throughout the day. You know, our climate changes massively. You can have one day where it's you know minus two overnight and uh 10 degrees in the in the daytime, and then a few days later it's um you know 10 degrees overnight and 18 degrees in the day. So it's yeah, it's a very unpredictable climate. We're very exposed in our position in the in the North Atlantic. So the controls have to be you know set up to be optimal to get the most efficiency out of the systems, and you know, with the increased focus on efficiency that's that's essential when you uh design a heat pump system, um you know, it's really dragging the whole industry along now and making people look twice about how they've been engineering their gas boiler systems um and the best practices for a heat pump system should be being applied for for combustion boiler systems as well.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

It's a bit of um well it's a bit it's a bit strange. I mean, the the good thing about the heat pumps sector is it's it's created more visibility of how heat systems be should be controlled, but they should all be controlled like this. I mean, yeah, the laws of thermodynamics don't distinguish between the appliance providing the heat, whether it's producing the heat or moving the heat. Yeah. Um now so back in your day you you were um part of you you would have been part, I believe, of some of the control manufacturers' associations, and I think perhaps some of you know the big yeah, we'll name I think you've been involved with the HHIC, um who's got some great people in it, but you know, I I I'd argue they they haven't done what uh what they could have done. And like I say, I do actually quite like the people. I mean, I quite actually like Mike Foster, I've never actually met Mike Foster yet. Uh he gets so much grief, obviously, he runs the the E the Energy Utilities Alliance. I was once in an email chain way back obviously when the hydrogen thing was really at the fore, and I was CC'd into an email, I must have had about 20 people in it, and all 19 of these people are pro-electrification, pro-heat pumps, or whatever, very much against sort of the hydrogen lobbying that was going on. And I thought, hmm, you know, I didn't ask to be in this email, and it does seem like a bit of an attack on Mike. So I just so I messaged Mike. I mean, Mike had blocked me previous years on social media, but I messaged him on the email. I said, Look, Mike, I didn't know I was going to get put into this email, and it and it was just coming up before Christmas. Uh, and I said, you know, just wishing you all the best for Christmas, you and your family. And he wrote a lovely email back, and and you nation. I really appreciate that. You have a good Christmas too. And I've never met the guy, and you know, I was brought up, you don't hate people, which hate people anyway, um, and I've not even met him. I I actually think I'd really like him if I ever met him, and we'd probably have a great, great laugh and giggle together. You know, I I don't agree with the stance the EUA and the HHIC took, and there might be all sorts of reasons for that. I mean, essentially, he was doing his job, he's promoting what he's supposed to do, and being paid to promote. But um the HHRC, as you know, have these working groups, and I should imagine you were part of them. I mean, what was going on? Why, why, why didn't these working groups come together and say, look, we've got these modern condensing borders, they will only condense if they're controlled properly. They've been made and engineered to be able to control. Yeah, there's some great advancements in modern borders. Uh, yeah, the RD teams have done some brilliant work. And yeah, why was anyone saying, look, they need to be controlled properly? Well, I mean, was it just apathy? Was it complacency?

SPEAKER_01 18:39

It's it's a number of things, actually, Nathan. And uh you're absolutely right. I was part of those those working groups actually led uh led some of them um for my sins. And um, yeah, it was an interesting time. Um as you always with these with these working groups, there's various in interests being being supported. Um you're absolutely right in some of the comments you've made in the past about you know the the biggest benefactor wins, you know, and and gets gets their uh gets their way on it and you know makes the the lobbying piece. And and I'm you know, I'm an engineer like you, and and I get a little bit frustrated sometimes with politics and with policy and and with lobbying. Um but that's the you know that's the nature of our democracy. Um the the working groups uh produced some really good information. Um I was involved with some of the um test work that was done at uh at um the facility in Salford, yeah. Um and and that created some really good thought leadership and and some good input into the regs. So you know, as you say, there's some quite divisive fact um um people there um that you know went that may be right in one way, but when you meet them they're they're a different different person. I actually called out Mike on something over the weekend that he posted on LinkedIn um about heat. Um I don't think they they mean anything negative, it's just maybe they're not quite as um up to date as as as what the market is in some cases. So I think you know, you can have a respectful conversation with people and to inform from your perspective and share a certain knowledge, you know. So I think that's the way forward. You know, no one's uh an expert in any of this stuff, and I hate the term expert, it it sets you up to fail. And and actually what we need to do is is recognize that we are at the intersection of a massive change in the in the sector as we move from um combustion to electrification, and there's a huge amount of of knowledge to be shared and also to be gained, you know, the the science is not settled yet.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Will you will you be sad to see combustion go, Robert? Because like my father, you're an avid steam train fan, and uh you've done the same courses. I think it was before my mum died, 2008. We we sent dad on a course, three-day course where we learned how to drive a locomotive. Because obviously the word boiler comes from that whole industry of steam, doesn't it? And yeah, we we we invented it and gave it to the world, you know. That was what industrialisation was, these these great big mechanical machines that um we're essentially still in the steam age, you know, our gas combined power turbine thing that's produced, you turn a turbine using steam. Um will you be sad to see? Combustion go as an avid steam enthusiast?

SPEAKER_01 22:04

I don't think it is going to go, uh if I'm honest, Nathan. Um as as much as the the government um directives and the green lobby are pushing for the end of combustion. The reality is that there won't be an end to combustion in our lifetime. Um you know when you look at the number of boilers that are still being installed versus heat pumps, it's still ten times boil um the the amount. You know, it's a one and a half million boilers being installed every year, and we're around about 100,000 heat pumps, depending on what figures you look at. So it's a long, long way to go. And you know, those systems the the the way I look at it, and and I and I had a real sort of pivotal moment in my career five years ago, where I decided to start to you know leave my comfort zone. You know, I'd I'd been at uh at um my employer for a long time, and I saw that there was a new world coming, you know, the world of electrification, and I wanted to know all about it. So I I left my comfort zone, my uh corporate job, went and went to work for some startups. Startups are a completely new way of working uh for anyone that's been an employee in a in a legacy company, and the the change out there is is absolutely phenomenal. And if you can keep up, then it's a great, great work working environment. Um but yeah, there's a huge, huge step change coming to go away from you know combustion boilers to electrified heat. And you know, when I say electrified heat, I don't just mean heat pumps. There are many, many different ways of having electrified heat. Um and one of the startups I worked at was a thermal storage boiler. Um, so yeah, there's lots of great technologies out there as as well as new business models and and new ways of working. So you know, it is a transition. You know, we are moving from combustion first uh systems to electrified systems, and you know, you can say the same about our electricity grid, you know. Used to be mainly coal-fired power stations, didn't it? And the last one of those closed last year. And you know, your question was, you know, will I miss these things? Well, of course I will. You know, I grew up with them, you know, I grew up with coal-fired power stations and the trains pulling massive long trains of of coal hoppers uh to to you know keep keep the electricity going. Um so yeah, there's a big part of my childhood which was was involved in all of that. Um I'm a big uh car enthusiast. I I still drive a petrol car because I prefer them to electric cars. I like electric cars, you know. I think for most people they're fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

You've got one, haven't you, Rob?

SPEAKER_01 25:16

But no, I don't. I have a petrol car still.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

Oh, is it your wife that's got an AV then?

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Uh it was actually my mother, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Um so you know, I like them and I I can see that they're good, a good technology, but personally I'm still I'm still a petrol guy. So I I try and keep away from the politics and from the green lobby and and the almost like religious zeal that some of these people have for either one thing or the other. You know, I'm an engineer, I look at the middle ground, and I think if you can meet people where they are, share with people what you've tried and what you've learned, and and and give your perspective, if everyone did that, we'd all be a lot happier, Nathan.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Well, like I said earlier, I mean when when I used to, well I'm gonna say I used to battle with you on the butt you it wasn't a battle because you were never you were never sort of as rumbunctious as I was, you were always very polite, very calm. You know, there's me gang on about things like you know, you do realize while my granddad was flying out to Honeywell in the 70s, they were making all the napalm and landmarks and clusterballs for it, and more you know, energy efficiency wasn't top of their gender, profit was all these sort of things, bless you, and you you always maintained this lovely um non-combatative stance. Yeah, I wish I was a little bit more like that. I mean, I don't like to say I don't I was always brought up not to be personal, but you know, if you think there's a cause worth fighting for, fight it. And uh I'm I'm in a lucky position where I can because I've you know I've grown up in the sector, probably a bit more closer to it than most people. You know, my grandfather was involved in manufacturing heat and equipment all around Europe, and my cousins have been putting in heat pumps for 50 years. Yeah. What what what would you what do you think really needs to be done? I mean, if you could wave a magic wand, uh across our sector, across our industry, what would you sort of want to be done? Yeah, what were the the wishes or the things that you need think need changing quickly?

SPEAKER_01 27:24

I mean, what's really been highlighted in in the transition over the last ten years really, um, is is a a deficit of knowledge. Um and that goes right back to the way we uh educate our children and the way we train our apprentices and and bring them into into the workplace and allow them to thrive as as uh professionals. Um to sort of relate it to me a little bit. Um I went to a secondary modern school. Um my exposure to um maths and science was quite limited. Um and what that meant was that when I went into college I was disadvantaged because I had to catch up quickly on some of those areas. And and what I see in the heating industry is a deficit of knowledge uh across the board. And I've just started delivering training to uh installers that are wanting to upscale to heat lamps. And what I'm finding is there's a huge, huge leap because as we know the the heating systems that still get installed in boilers are not low temperature systems, they're high temperature on our systems, um so there's a big gap there to close. But also in a lot of cases the the knowledge level and the capability of of installers to do formulas and maths is is limited because they're um either they didn't have that education at the college level, school level, or in their jobs they've not had to not had to use it, so they're resting. I think the the challenge is going from a a system where you know the the the heating systems get installed almost by eye, you know, there's a combi boiler that can produce 30 kilowatts of of of output for for space heating as well as hot water when the home only needs three kilowatts. You kind of like set up to fail to begin with, you know, and moving towards a low temperature exactly sized system, it's a it's a huge, huge leap. You know, we're not just changing the heat appliance, we're changing the whole way of working that has to be done now for a heat pump system, room by room calculation, emitter sizing, low flow temps, high flow rates, narrow delta T. It's like it's almost better, I would think. So there's two skill sets to fit heat pumps, right? One is the plumbing side and one is the electric side. And actually, I I what I see is if you take an electrician, it's easier to turn them into a heat pump engineer than to turn the heating engineer into a heat pump engineer.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

That's interesting. That's interesting because it's his historically electricians, uh, when they used to work on heating controls, they I mean I remember as an apprentice teaching the electrician. I I worked for the first sort of two years of my apprenticeship, I worked on a very large building estate, 5,000 homes. And I was privy to Honeywell informations because obviously my granddad would be getting it, you know, he was working at uh working with them. So I knew all about S plans and etc, etc. So I was having to teach some of these electricians because they they never really understood what they were actually trying to do. So they didn't really understand that it wasn't just a valve, it was a switch as well. You know, that that valve was going across, hitting a micro switch, which would then turn your border and pump on. Yeah. Now we've definitely got this deficit knowledge. Now, this is why I think it would help so much if our industry, and I've sort of put a newsletter out to say that Heat Pump Association can do a lot of work around this. If engineers just knew how to wire the controls up to the border properly, that's it. They've got a low temperature system, they've had to do no sizing, no calculations, no use informers. It's just because all heating systems out there in our country are low temperature for most of the winter, all of them. You know, even a 1960s home built in 1960 with no installation and it only had single panel radiators. If those radiators need 75 degree water when it's minus to the outside, they only need around 48 when it's a more common 9 degrees centigrade outside. Yeah. So all heating is essentially low temperature. It's just got to be your appliance, it's got to be controlled properly to be able to modulate the temperatures down. Now, if engineers would just talk, right, this is how we're supposed to wire boils up, job done, within a few years they'd all get to realise that, oh yeah, radios don't need to be hot for most of the time. Because these are the biggest issue I see. I I know some extremely competent gas engineers who they are the ones you want round your home at nine o'clock in the evening when your heating's broke down, it's extremely cold, you've got an old person living with you, or you've got babies living with you, you want your heating on. They are so skilled to be able to go into your home and recognise amongst a multitude of boilers and makes, there's hundreds out there, yeah, to recognise it and think, yes, and have the tactic knowledge and heuristics to go, yes, I bet I know what's wrong with that particular maker model and get it going that night. That is an incredible skill that we don't value. I know people that have contacted me and said, Oh, my engineer come around and I was questioning them about heat pumps, they didn't know at all about heat pumps nice. And I said, What do you get around for? Oh well, border broke down and did they fix it? Oh yeah, yeah, they've got that going right. I think well, there you go. That is a skill set in its own right that doesn't get appreciated much. Now all we've got to do, because these engineers I chat to that can do that, they are the ones that say to me, no, we need hot radios. What you're on about, we need hot radios. It's because you know, no one's sort of really helped them understand what heat is, that it's different to temperature, that it moves. And you know, after they've chatted to me for a little while, they sometimes get it. And if if we had engineers, gas engineers that were controlling these borders properly within just literally a couple of years, they'd all be used to like look the fact that radiators can eat your home at low temperatures for most winter. And then that transition becomes way, way more easier for heat pumps.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Yeah, it absolutely does, and and that was kind of my journey. Um, so before um the heat pump that was installed here five years ago, I had a Valent EcoTech system boiler um that I converted to OpenTherm by um parallel importing the adapter from Valent in from the Netherlands illegally, apparently, and against the warranty, you know, destroyed my warranty by by fitting this genuine part, go figure that. Um, and you know, my system was running at 45 degrees C for most of the year. Um, so I I tested that myself, and I think that's the key to all of this transition. And I was having a similar discussion with uh a guy from Canada um recently. Um the way engineers learn and work, you know, the empirical learning for vocational trades is by seeing and doing. That's the valuable knowledge. And if and if we could get if we could get the installers to live and breathe this, to get a heat pump in their own home, see what the differences are in terms of flow temperatures, the tepid rads, the uh narrow delta T and the quadrupled flow rates, it would click instantly in their head. Um whereas at the moment, what we're trying to do is overcomplicate the whole sector by throwing acres and acres of compliance at a sector that doesn't understand the the basics.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

We keep coming out of all this compliance, don't you no engineer? There's not many engineers sitting down reading part L and part A and all part F and all this, they just don't.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Um The other thing is that that annoys me, Nathan, and you know, the whole building regs framework, we could have a separate podcast just on that. Um, but one of the things that really triggers me is that we reference these British standards and European standards in the regulations as if the installers will have access to them. They won't. You know, and we ask people to do calculations to BSN standards. There's there's no way anyone have has seen those those British standards. That they're they're hundreds of pounds. And we're and we're still like gate gatekeeping that knowledge from from the people that we want to use it.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

But there's hundreds of British standards involved in our industry, you'd need to be a millionaire to have them all. Um, it's a bit of a strange system. Um, yeah, we could definitely could have another podcast on uh on the regulations. Definitely. Well, um because you're you're involved now in training, aren't you, Robert?

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Yeah, so um I've been doing training a lot over the last yeah 10-15 years, really. I did uh did a lot of training when I was back at back at Honeywell um when we set up the uh controls courses. Um and then um at this at the startup recently um I was training lead there, network lead. So yeah, um since I went freelance, I've been doing a lot of lot of training. Um and yeah, I'm I'm running some some BPEC courses on low temperature design and and also heat pump courses. Um so yeah, getting to see how those courses are are delivered, what's what's included in them, and you know, how that course takes people at they are where their knowledge is, and and you know, upskills them through that. And and I know you've got some views on training courses, and you don't like the fact that some of them are you know just pay to pay to pass courses. Um and I think some of that criticism can be valid, but from my experience, because you know, two years ago when I um was between roles, I I upskilled myself and and did the did those courses, and they're they're good introduction courses. Um you know I've done all the courses, I've done I've done HeatGeek back in the day, I've done Gakimbo's course, I've done the BPAC courses, and they all overlay. They're like a schmorgers board. In an in and of themselves, one one course wouldn't be any good. But if you lay them all together and then have the manufacturers' heat pump courses as well, they can really prepare people quite well for being practitioners, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

They can, but I'm gonna pick you up on some points here. So you you mentioned the word introduction courses.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

Which is kind of what they are, they're kind of awareness. Well, this is how people are viewing them, and you've just said it yourself. Under UCAS and off-qual rules, it's actually a qualification. So it should actually be more than an introduction course, but they're not working, they're not, you know, a qualification is supposed to um sort of suggest that you are competent. Well, actually, under off-quell rules and cash low qualifications, yeah, them learning outcomes, if you pass that course, you've achieved the learning outcomes, which you mean you've you've you've achieved mastery in each of them specific learning outcomes. But what a lot of people are saying to me is, you know, I've asked people that have come off them courses and say, right, no, name the and I do it kind of politely, I don't try and trip them up. I say, you know, name me the four main components in the heat pump, and they don't know. And they've just been on a three-day heat pump course. Now, the other big, big thing though, Robert, is when you went on them courses, yeah, you were passionate about learning something.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

A lot of adult, I've taught a lot of adults, uh, you know, they get told to go on courses or they sit, it's free, so they go on it. They're not quite passionate about learning. And it's what we're not set up better teachers, set it under these two principles, activate people as learning resources for one another, that's peer-to-peer, and activate people as self-directed learnings, because no human learns anything unless they want to learn it. It's as simple as that. That's loads of evidence behind that. Now you really want to learn something. And as when people ask me, you know, why are these good engineers? You know nothing good. I say it's because you know they went on the courses, they enjoy the courses, obviously, but they continue their learning, we call it lifelong learning. You are constantly learning, you're constantly engaging with your peers about this and about that, and that whereas a lot of other people they go on them courses, they've gone on the exactly the same course you did, but they come away with minimum knowledge because no one's activated them to become a self-directed learner. Other people activate themselves, you had a passion to want to learn something, and that's what you did. And you know, we've we just keep pushing people onto these courses, unless we've managed to inspire, and it's an individual level, this works on an individual level. You know, why would someone be interested in this? Um, you know, a lot of people have got their day-to-day jobs, let's say they're a gas engineer and they've gone on a heat pump course, they come back off that course, they're still doing their day-to-day job, they've got the worries of we all having family, life, society, whatever. Whereas you you were different, you were looking for course direction, uh different, maybe a different career direction, and you were super passionate about learning. And it's as simple as that. You you we just need to activate these people to be lifelong learners and to be uh take ownership of their own learning. That's as simple as that.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Yeah, uh I totally agree, Nathan, and and you you bang on that's exactly my psyche and and how I approach everything in my life. Um, you know, if if you if you don't if you're not passionate about it and you don't live it fully, there's no point. And um I can't speak for others' experience, you know, what they will take away from these courses. Um but it's like anything, there's a you know, if you give that what you get out of it depends on what you put into it. And if if you if you take the opportunity and you're a sponge and want to soak up all the knowledge and want to, you know, use the opportunity of having a an experienced lecturer there to take you through it and to show you how the qualification uh is mapped out and and what the qualification is looking for, then you can gain a lot from these courses. If if you're literally just doing it and looking to find the right tick to go in the box, then you'll pass you'll pass it, but you won't have learnt anything.

SPEAKER_00 43:04

I mean, it's the same with it. I mean, like I say, the the good engineers out there, so a lot of them have only been putting heat pumps in for just a few years, a couple of years, some of them, but they just they just found something sparked their interest and they wanted to learn and learn and keep learning. You're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

So, you know, I'm friends with both Kim Betty and Adam Chapman, right? Now, those guys have both done very well recently with training courses, right? Um Kim Bow's basically retired now and he sold it out to to Warmer. Um, Adams built HeatGeek with Adeil, and you know, that was based around training. But when when those guys first started doing the training courses, they hadn't installed heat pumps, right? So this is still very, very nascent. I I've had the the honor of being part of. Heat pump company. I was technical director at a heat pump company for the last 18 months. And I was personally involved in 50 installations. So I've got a good track record of you know taking the surveys and designs and seeing what they what they turn into and what the real world performance is of these systems, you know. And I think it's very easy to set yourself up as a as a yoda of knowledge of certain areas that's not based on years and years of experience and and lots of different installations. And I think what what the industry thrives on is knowledge sharing, and you've had you've hit on this before. And that's why I think the most valuable resource that we've got out there at the moment is the open energy monitor data. Yes, oh my god, yes. Because that really proves what works and what doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

Oh, bless them, lads. I had a lovely message from Tristan the other day, uh thanking me for sort of uh talking about them a lot on my podcast. And I and I will keep doing that because they are such well, you you you you would have met Tristan and Glenn.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

I mean they're they're genuinely lovely people, they are genuinely lovely, lovely people.

SPEAKER_00 45:17

That that whole thing they've done it has changed the face of our industry. Really, really has. Um going back to Kim and uh Adam, because they're good examples. So them these two gentlemen, arguably, without a shadow of a doubt, have helped our sector more uh when it when it comes to learning than any other two people I can probably name.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

Now, interestingly, I mean we both know them well. I mean, you and I have been out drinking with I mean, I'm I'm probably one of the only people who can out drink Adam. He fell asleep at three in the morning on the bar still. Um, but they they both did it very differently. So Adam uh utilised what we now know as social media, YouTube. You know, YouTube is a relatively new thing, I suppose, what 2007 it came out in. Um, and he's he's quite a flamboyant character. He the way he did his YouTube videos sparked something in some people. So I there's and and it's the same with Kimbo. People that were going on Kimbo's sort of face-to-face courses, Kimbo is a wonderful gentleman. I mean, anyone that's been on his course will know this, he's a he's he's a good friend of mine. I was with him the other day uh for drinks, not that he drinks, and he did the same. His enthusiasm sparked some people in his room, and that's what that's that's what activated them to become self-directed learners because some of them come away from doing whether it was Adam's course or or or Kimbo's, and they wanted to learn more. Now I do know people that come away from that course, and and they've said to me, you know, within two weeks they completely forgot everything that was taught because they either didn't have the time to sort of carry on learning about it, um, or what whatever reason. But some people came away and they were just so super interested in the industry, they just carried on learning and they carried on learning. And it was them two gentlemen, Adam Chapman and and and Kimbo, that sparked that. They'd sparked something in them people. That's the real key to it. Because you said something else that was sort of interesting, you know. Yes, they haven't been involved in heat pumps that long. I mean, I remember chatting to Adam saying he should get into them at the time. He was very, very much into fuel cells, yeah, um, hydrogen fuel cells. And obviously, my you know, I don't want anyone to think I know loads about heat pumps, I don't, but you know, my family's been involved with them for nearly half a century. Yeah, and I was talking to him about them, and of course, that then became sort of their big business pivot. And but you said something about experience, neither of them two had experience in heat pumps, and yet they've managed to facilitate learning. So this is you'll often see people say that you know a tutor or a trainer has to have experience in the technology. Now I will always dispute that because I've read around training more than most people in my sector, yeah. And and that's another point I've gonna come on to in a minute. Um, but they were just able to facilitate learning, that's the real key. If you can facilitate learning in in a way that really makes people go away and start thinking and think, oh, I want to want to learn as much about that as possible because we now live in a world with wonderful resources, YouTube videos and blogs and podcasts. You want to learn something, you can learn something. If you know, I've just bought myself a new electric guitar. I used to have one year and years ago, 20 years ago. And you know, unless I practice every day, I'm not gonna get good. If I want to learn how to play stairway to heaven, it's no good me going on a on a month on a music electric guitar training course for one day and then thinking I'm gonna be able to play, you know, I've got to put the F in. I've got to want to learn, I mean it helps that I put in the we put in the heat pump system for Jonathan Jones that wrote stairway to heaven. We could I could go and ask him. Um, but yeah, people have to put in uh that their own efforts the same with anything. And uh the good thing about them two characters is they were able to facilitate learning and they were enthusiastic, and that's what pushed or drove people to want to learn more. I mean, it'd be interesting that, like you say, Walmart have now taken over that course, and I know some of the people doing the delivery and they're wonderful people, I really like them. Uh, it's obviously something to do with ideal heating at the moment as well. Um so that I mean it'd be interesting to see how that goes, but uh Yeah, definitely. Uh I I think we should be doing more efficacy studies. I think we should be tracking, especially with the heat training grant, you know, it's been raised to 21 million pounds. You know, no one in government or the heat pump association is tracking people like you know. If someone goes on that course, get in contact with them six months later. Are you now installing heat pumps? Uh, what what what do you feel you've learned?

SPEAKER_01 49:40

And yeah, and I think that's the education that you're absolutely bang on the heat training grant is you know, is really funding a lot of this these courses now. It's putting people on to the BPEC courses, um, and obviously those are you know an established training modules. Um, I think what's also needed to qualify whether that knowledge has been gained uh and and the learner can actually apply it correctly is the start at home scheme. So after going on the low temperature course, I have to do in the heat pump course, you know, get them on onto a system where they can design their own system at home, you know, survey it, do the heat loss, do the system design, install it, see it working, and then actually you feed back on what it's like to have a lived experience of not only surveying and installing and designing, but also living with the heat pump. Because unless you've got that complete end-to-end knowledge and experience of doing the whole thing end-to-end, I don't think that you you've got really the rounded experience and knowledge to then go and start selling and installing heat pumps for people.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

Oh, it's a brilliant scheme, is that you will yours truly is one of Nestor's consultants, and I remember chatting to him about this years ago because you know, my dad did it. So when my dad started working for Triangle Red Fire, who were the biggest boiler man uh sort of manufacturer in the country back in the early 80s, yeah, he he put an anticyte solid fuel boiler into our home and then and then he swapped it out for an oil boiler so he he could get to learn the technology and what it was doing because we didn't have central heat until 1981 in our home, I think. And that's one of the reasons he put it in so he could get familiar with the technology himself. It's such a it's like like you said earlier, you know, engineers are visual and they like to do things, and that's how they sort of learn. And if it's going into their own home, they can tweak it, they can sort of spot challenges and then work around them. It's a it's a really, really good scheme. Talking about your heat pump, you had yours putting under the electrification of heat project, didn't you? Which was a Desnes thing or Bayes thing back in the day, 750 heat pumps went into homes, and you you were one of them, weren't you?

SPEAKER_01 52:01

And and yeah, and that was really what inspired me to leave my you know job in corporate world, very, very stable role, um, and go into the startup world. Um you know, I saw the the opportunity with heat pumps, and also saw that the state of the art was really quite disappointing. Um I had to go through a period of learning about heat pumps myself and correcting some of the installation errors and commissioning mistakes uh that were on my system. And I thought, well, I spent the last two last two years learning about all this stuff. I need to use it, you know, I need to go and take that knowledge experience into the industry and and try and help it to be that best practice to be rolled out, and um that's what I have been doing and and what I continue to do. Um, because these systems are can be really, really great, or they can be really, really disappointing, and the the line between failure and success is quite narrow.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

Going back to boilers and controlling them properly. So as my newsletter sort of spoke about, you know, we the the main issue is let's say someone buys a control that's got open therm.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

And the boiler, let's say, has got open therm as well. I mean, not all boilers do have open therm, some have their own proprietary um bus protocols, don't they? But let's say someone's bought that that that controller has open therm, their boiler's got open therm, then what's happening is they they they still wire that control up to switch live on the PCB, print circuit board, in the boiler. And you know, we we've then made a boiler that's very, very highly engineered. Yeah, we've kind of lobotomised its brain. Um I mean, what how do you think we can solve this problem coming from the controls industry? I mean, I'm still seeing a lot of complaints here, a lot of apathy. I don't know what the word right word is. I don't want to blame. I mean, some people will say to me, well, it's um you know, it's because they want to sell more it, it's being done on purpose. I don't know if it is being done on purpose. I think it's just the way our industry went, our industry became the biggest gas boiler industry in the world market, uh, still the biggest in Europe. And so all these manufacturers, loads and loads of them, you know, they've got to sell stuff, you know, they've got to maintain their KPIs, otherwise it becomes a critical situation for any business. And we've got into this position where no one seems to be doing the right thing against common good engineering practice. And you know, I often say this to people, I say we've got a massive advantage in the heating sector industry. We've got these laws of physics that tell us what the truth is. Other sectors don't have that. So you and I, Robert, would have grown up, uh, you know, one minute eggs are bad for you, one minute they're good for you, one minute red meat's bad for you, one minute's good for you. And you know, no, it's very hard to find the truth because you'll have academic research supporting both sides of the argument. And that's the same in the pharma industry and the cosmetics industry, but you know, our industry has these laws of physics, the laws of thermodynamics, you know, hot moves to cold, yeah. You know, uh heat will move quicker if there's a higher temperature difference, and things like this. We've got this, these, these real good laws to stand against, and and our industry seems to be always going against them. I mean, the amount of articles I've read over the years in trades media, and I read them, I think, what on earth are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 55:35

Um Yeah, and and that that sadly, Nathan, you know, I said I'm not gonna put any punches on on this today, and I'm not because the the knowledge deficit isn't just with the installers, it's with the manufacturers and the manufacturers' working groups as well. Um and there's a widespread lack of understanding of control engineering and of modulation control, and it it it needs more people, you know. I'm gonna say I'm big-headed now, but it needs more people like us in the industry that are gonna challenge and to not take no for an answer because as things stand, the industry is still stuck in the 1980s.

SPEAKER_00 56:24

Oh, massively. I mean, I I've kind of described it as when people ask me about the boiler industry, I say, look, you can kind of think of as three separate entities and they're kind of in their own silos. You've got these amazing RD teams, and you and I know some of the people, you've got these amazing research and development teams that that engineer this incredible stuff. So that's one sort of compartment box. Let's have a boiler company, let's say it's a boiler company. You've then got an a middle box that's the marketing people, the senior leadership team, the comms team, you know, even the technical rec directors don't often know what they should know nowadays. That never used to be the case. And then the third entity is the customer of that boiler manufacturer, which are the installers. And so you've got this one sort of section entity, the RD engineers, who've who've engineered a great product, but then the marketing team, especially in the UK, not so much that in in Germany and other places, Netherlands, but in the UK, then the marketing team just I don't know. And and and the marketing team, also in that box is the trade, um, the trade bodies, you know, so the trade bodies and all the representatives that go into these associations, they aren't the RD people. No, they're the marketing people, the commons people, the senior leadership teams, and of course they don't really know the technology. So we've got this weird situation where, like I say, we've been hanging borders for 20 years that I'd argue are not meeting building regulations because that the building requirement, the the requirement part hell, is to um use effective controls. Well, if you've designed a border back in the 90s that can be controlled really, really well, you know, span feet, uh fan speeds, and all the sorts of stuff, all these different thermistors inside them and sensors, and and yet we go and wire them up to the switch live and the PCB, that completely bottomises all that control. That's not effective control.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

It isn't, it isn't, Nathan. And um, the manufacturers know this, um, they know what the technology is capable of. Um, and yes, for various reasons, and there are multiple reasons, it's not just some um conspiracy theory, you know, there's a cascade failure here that explains why this is, but you know, from my perspective, you know, the modulation controls were brought to market in the UK. Um, they were written into regulations, written into standards. There was huge amounts of promotion done for weather compensation and low compensation control. Um, and still to this day, those systems are in the minority, it's less than 10% get installed with full modulation control. And and I wish that was changing for heat pumps, but it isn't. The heat pumps are still getting installed on fixed flow temperatures, right? And and the training for the installers on on the courses and and by the manufacturers doesn't really equip them with the experience and knowledge to set up a weather curve properly. So it what we what we see is that most heat pumps go in at fixed flow temperature with a buffer tank, which is you know obviously gonna result in a low-performing heat pump. So we have all of the technology that we need to be successful. What we've got uh is a gap is a knowledge gap again.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

That sounds a lot Steve Austin then. Yeah, we have the the six million dollar man, we have the technology.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:07

We we do, and you know, the we we we've only spoken about heating today, but this whole new sector of smart energy goes way beyond heating. You know, the integration of battery storage and flexible tariffs is really the icing on the cake and the real game-changing technology. Um because generally a heat pump will will be at the same sort of running cost as a gas boiler. You you need flexible tariffs and battery storage to to get it uh get the running cost lower.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

What what what's your what's your view on um time of use tariffs and all this? Because obviously we've got a situation where people are using these to reduce uh costs. But is that is there a risk there? Is there a risk that we're we we we are there or some entities are putting in heat pumps not as optimally as possible? And and and it's not that much difficult to put them in as optimally as possible. And but we're relying on these type of use tariffs to keep the customer happy with a low price. Is that is that going to cause us a problem down the road?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:22

Um it all depends on your system design. So obviously, when you do your heat loss calculation and your system specification, um you put in an uplift for intermittent operation. Um and for heat pumps, you know, you'll typically add a um intermittency factor of 20%, something like that, to allow for um you know the hot water generation and also any setback uh recovery. Um when you start uh trying to adapt heat pump running to flexible tariffs, you have to take even more um intermittency uplift. Um so you can work these heat pump systems in line with the smart tariffs. I've tried it, you know, I've seen it, what it does, I've you know, I've I've tried it here over the last couple of winters. Um I think it's a zero-sum game, um, unless you can run it with a battery storage. If you can run a battery storage where you charge up your battery in your cheap overnight period, and then use that to fill in the gaps where there's a peak and cost in the day, it can it can be good because then you're allowing the heat pump to run a steady state, and you're using the battery storage to um you know by having the uh off-peak tariffs, you can use your battery storage to avoid the peaks.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:58

I've just had uh I've just recorded actually. Eon Eon come on the podcast uh talk about their new uh initiative where they're they um they will put battery in PV, heat pump, and um solar, and the customer only has a a fixed monthly payment, which is yeah, that they're trying to make it as uh close as possible to what their previous uh year's bills were. So there's no upfront cost for people, they can have all the technology going. It seemed quite interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:27

Uh well that takes us full circle to Green Deal, doesn't it? We aren't gonna talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

You'll get me upset. You'll get me upset. Um it's it's like energy as a service. Uh it's it's very I'll I'll put this podcast out first because it's uh very much in line with my my newsletter I've just released, and then that their uh their episode will be coming out soon. Well, Robert, it's been great having you on the show. That's an hour already. It goes quick, buddy, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:55

Yeah, and I think we could have could have talked a lot longer, Nathan. There's there's a lot to unpick. Um but I mean I'm incredibly excited about the future. I think the the heat pump sector is ready to really take off. You know, we we've got the technology now, we we've got the business models and the digital um software and working practices to really streamline things. I'm excited by the changes to MCS, and I think we're really set to have a really successful market as it grows. And I see an intersection between heating and electricity in in the home as well. I think you'll see much more manufacturers, sorry, much more installers, not just doing heat pumps, but doing heat pumps with battery, um, and in and doing a whole home piece, you know, solar, battery, EV, um, everything together, because that's really the the next stage. Um, and I've just written uh an article for installer about this subject, so watch out for that.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:09

No, you're right. I mean, the guild, I did a post on LinkedIn today sort of saying what some of the guild engineers will be doing this week, and yeah, a lot of them are doing um PV and battery. Yeah, Steve Webster, uh great friend of mine. He he's he's going back to put a heat pump in for someone actually. He we uh they put PV in and an EV charger and batteries in quite a while ago, and then they're going. So they're all doing and and also the other interesting thing is they're all getting into AC. Yeah. Uh so that's uh I've spent a I spent quite a long time, a few years, convincing people it's it's it's very good for domestic properties. Uh the amount of people that were doing say, oh, it's noisy, or no, it's not very healthy to live in, you know, it dries your skin, and and uh but now we are seeing a bit of a movement. So most of the guild engineers are either putting in AC already, some of them have got some AC. A C jobs this uh this week. So it's it is very interesting. The only problem is as we grow, like the boiler industry grew uh exponentially, um we've got a risk of some of this stuff not being put in very well. With the gas boiler, you didn't really have to worry about it. Gas prices, you know, your fuel bills were still low with with with heat pumps. And I'm afraid to say that there's going to be quite a few heat pumps breaking down, way, way longer than they should be.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:28

Um absolutely, well, but a big part of what I'm doing in my freelance role now is going around fixing heat pumps which uh which are poorly and that were never set up properly. Um so yeah, there's a there's a big work stream of of stuff to do on that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:46

All right, Rob, well it was wonderful having you on the show. Before we go, because you are a train enthusiast, one thing my dad always moans about because he loves he loves um trains and he's been on all the ones around the country that are still running because you there are a few little um he always moans how the coal is imported, so we're actually importing the coal for these steam trains on ships rather than using the coal that we've already got in this country.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:13

Well, we are, and that's absolutely crazy, isn't it? Um he says it's crazy, yeah. Like we're importing lots of things at the moment. We're importing uh our gas from Norway, uh, we're importing kerosene from around the world, um, and we're importing coal um when we have our own coal. So there's a little bit of a disconnect in our in our energy policy going on.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:39

All a bit confusion. Anyway, we could chat all day, can we, buddy? You go off and have a great rest of the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:46

Thanks a lot, Nathan. Great to speak. No problem.